[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Unconscious bias?

Do you want bullet points in response to all of your comments or what?

I get accused of lecturing if I reply to women and now I’ve got an unconscious bias against them when I don’t reply to everything you say

The awarding of the award to a trans woman was an incredibly positive step yes, but not because it was Caitlyn Jenner, her status as the new face of trans was refuted right from the beginning

Well if you replied with anything other than mocking joker emojis then you might be taken seriously when responding to the concerns of women.

My point was that step wouldn't have happened initially if taken by anyone else.. she had the money and the media gravitas to make it happen. It propelled trans issues into the spotlight instantly.
There was an element of hero worship about it as I remember well on here...it was discussed at length and the majority of the comments were massively supportive mirrored by the trans community.

[Liam-]

Only men that agree with you are allowed a voice then? Cause that’s what I’m getting here, none of you seem to have an issue with any of the men who are arguing the same side as you, it’s weird how you preach you’re being silenced yet diminish the opinion of people who don’t agree with you based on their gender, funny that

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Only men that agree with you are allowed a voice then? Cause that’s what I’m getting here, none of you seem to have an issue with any of the men who are arguing the same side as you, it’s weird how you preach you’re being silenced yet diminish the opinion of people who don’t agree with you based on their gender, funny that

I think to call a spade a spade here... When I see clashes across the media and the biggest contributers to each side of that argument are women on one side, and gay men on the other (a group who for the most part have far less vested interest in women than any other, to be blunt), and the argument is about women's rights... It seems fairly obvious which side I should be listening to in greater depth... And again to be blunt: you'd (I assume) completely understand that if it was about any other group. If a racial group for example was standing up and saying "Listen, this is how this actually affects us, these are our worries" and the response of a completely unrelated group with no skin in the game whatsoever was "Shut up you hateful scum!"... Well. I suspect you'd see the issue, then.

No attempt at all made to actually discuss or ease the fears of women, many of whom have very real personal reasons to be afraid. Just "shut up and stop getting in the way TERF". It's honestly a horrendous attitude.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think to call a spade a spade here... When I see clashes across the media and the biggest contributers to each side of that argument are women on one side, and gay men on the other (a group who for the most part have far less vested interest in women than any other, to be blunt), and the argument is about women's rights... It seems fairly obvious which side I should be listening to in greater depth... And again to be blunt: you'd (I assume) completely understand that if it was about any other group. If a racial group for example was standing up and saying "Listen, this is how this actually affects us, these are our worries" and the response of a completely unrelated group with no skin in the game whatsoever was "Shut up you hateful scum!"... Well. I suspect you'd see the issue, then.

No attempt at all made to actually discuss or ease the fears of women, many of whom have very real personal reasons to be afraid. Just "shut up and stop getting in the way TERF". It's honestly a horrendous attitude.

Exactly. I wonder if Liam will actually reply to your post this time or is it just the women he likes to lecture and "educate" about ourselves and our rights?

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Exactly. I wonder if Liam will actually reply to your post this time or is it just the women he likes to lecture and "educate" about ourselves and our rights?

I haven’t lectured or tried to educate anybody, I’m just sharing my opinion on the matter like everybody else, it’s not my fault you don’t like people, especially men, disagreeing with you

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I haven’t lectured or tried to educate anybody, I’m just sharing my opinion on the matter like everybody else, it’s not my fault you don’t like people, especially men, disagreeing with you

You're right, I don't like people ESPECIALLY men telling me what a woman is and what I should be comfortable with in terms of sex based rights

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Exactly. I wonder if Liam will actually reply to your post this time or is it just the women he likes to lecture and "educate" about ourselves and our rights?

Another thing I genuinely worry about is, gender ideology has become so all-encompassing that I have to wonder where the support for gay teenagers and young people has gone? It's an absolute shambles in school. My daughter (who had thus far only shown any interest in girls) has been told its biggotted not to consider non-binary males. Not even trans girls... Non-binary kids who present as 100% male. Another message that is gaining traction is that "anyone who doesn't identify as male who likes anyone else who doesn't identify as male is lesbian". Two biological boys, who present as male, but identify as non-binary, in a relationship, are supposedly lesbian. Now I don't doubt this is down to some inevitable young-teen confusion about terminologies but where is the concerns for what an absolute mind **** this is for "plain old" gay kids both girls and boys?? Nowhere to be seen in the current LGBT mindset is my experience.

There's also a boy in her class, literally only out as gay for 6 months, who has now been completely shunned by "the community" because there's a trans-boy who quite simply looks entirely female that likes him, but he said he's not interested because he's gay. Not allowed. He's a bigot now. Hes had people refer to him as a "genital fetishist". A 13 year old boy! Who has just come out as gay. Absolute shambles.

Now... I do honestly understand that older gay men potentially don't know about the issues that young gay people are facing at the moment trying to tackle the mess of poorly defined gender ideologies. Why and how would they know?

My concern though is that they don't particularly care. I've spoken before about how there used to be an LGBT group at my daughter's school but now there effectively is not, because it's all trans and non-binary. The gay kids have their own unofficial hangouts. Their "old fashioned" sexuality has no place at the official group. Utterly depressing.

The acceptable collateral damage for unwavering support of the gender zeitgeist extends to young gay people as well as adult women.

Lets not forget though; adult gay men can still confidently assert that they love penis and that's that. And it's fine. And if anyone has an issue with that, they're a homophobe, and should go and hang out with the other bigots such as the genital-fetishist lesbians who only want to date people with vaginas.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Another thing I genuinely worry about is, gender ideology has become so all-encompassing that I have to wonder where the support for gay teenagers and young people has gone? It's an absolute shambles in school. My daughter (who had thus far only shown any interest in girls) has been told its biggotted not to consider non-binary males. Not even trans girls... Non-binary kids who present as 100% male. Another message that is gaining traction is that "anyone who doesn't identify as male who likes anyone else who doesn't identify as male is lesbian". Two biological boys, who present as male, but identify as non-binary, in a relationship, are supposedly lesbian. Now I don't doubt this is down to some inevitable young-teen confusion about terminologies but where is the concerns for what an absolute mind **** this is for "plain old" gay kids both girls and boys?? Nowhere to be seen in the current LGBT mindset is my experience.

I'm gonna put this in a crude way, and I honestly don't mean to be offensive to non-binary males when I say this, but if your Daughter is a Lesbian the School has to accept that she isn't gonna be sexually attracted to someone with a Penis, it's that simple.

I'm with you on this Toy Soldier, gay/lesbian kids should still be supported, and they certainly shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable about who they feel sexually attracted to, it's kinda prejudiced in it's own right.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think to call a spade a spade here... When I see clashes across the media and the biggest contributers to each side of that argument are women on one side, and gay men on the other (a group who for the most part have far less vested interest in women than any other, to be blunt), and the argument is about women's rights... It seems fairly obvious which side I should be listening to in greater depth... And again to be blunt: you'd (I assume) completely understand that if it was about any other group. If a racial group for example was standing up and saying "Listen, this is how this actually affects us, these are our worries" and the response of a completely unrelated group with no skin in the game whatsoever was "Shut up you hateful scum!"... Well. I suspect you'd see the issue, then.

No attempt at all made to actually discuss or ease the fears of women, many of whom have very real personal reasons to be afraid. Just "shut up and stop getting in the way TERF". It's honestly a horrendous attitude.

Right, so you’ve just confirmed what I’ve said then, men that don’t agree with the likes of Jk, especially gay men it seems, aren’t going to be listened to, great discussion that is for sure, very balanced, very equal.

Also, by your example, nobody is listening to trans people in this debate, the only ones who are being highlighted like you enjoy reminding us are the looney ones who show themselves up and they’re being used as an example to tar the entire demographic to further the anti-trans agenda, JK herself didn’t this on Twitter yesterday when she posted examples of support for her, censoring out the name of said supporter, but blasting someone’s out because they disagreed with her, knowing full well what she was going to send their way.

There are genuine concerns about an incredibly tiny percentage of people that could possibly abuse a loophole in the system, but I genuinely don’t believe that that’s what the majority of this is about anymore, it started off as genuine questions being asked, but i believe that it’s been turned into a full on which hunt against an already marginalises part of society, based off of ignorance and bigotry and I’ll continue to think that until I see something that changes my mind.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

the looney ones who show themselves up

At least younceed that this fringe element (the dangerous fringe element, that people have genuine concerns about) exists. You'd face some harsh criticism for that concession out in the open.

There are genuine concerns about an incredibly tiny percentage of people that could possibly abuse a loophole in the system

Violence against women stats prove without a shadow of a doubt that its not just "possible" that any loophole will be exploited by dangerous men. It will be. It already has been. It will snowball if not treated carefully. People come under fire just for saying "please treat this carefully". I wish I lived in a world where these stats weren't clear but they are.

but I genuinely don’t believe that that’s what the majority of this is about anymore, it started off as genuine questions being asked, but i believe that it’s been turned into a full on which hunt against an already marginalises part of society, based off of ignorance and bigotry and I’ll continue to think that until I see something that changes my mind.

Even if that's entirely true, does it negate those genuine questions that were asked initially? Do those no longer matter because of a hijack?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think to call a spade a spade here... When I see clashes across the media and the biggest contributers to each side of that argument are women on one side, and gay men on the other (a group who for the most part have far less vested interest in women than any other, to be blunt), and the argument is about women's rights... It seems fairly obvious which side I should be listening to in greater depth... And again to be blunt: you'd (I assume) completely understand that if it was about any other group. If a racial group for example was standing up and saying "Listen, this is how this actually affects us, these are our worries" and the response of a completely unrelated group with no skin in the game whatsoever was "Shut up you hateful scum!"... Well. I suspect you'd see the issue, then.

No attempt at all made to actually discuss or ease the fears of women, many of whom have very real personal reasons to be afraid. Just "shut up and stop getting in the way TERF". It's honestly a horrendous attitude.

Great post TS.

[Niamh.]

I mean I don't actually understand why you think it's more likely that women just hate transwomen than actually being concerned about our rights, our safety and fairness towards ourselves?

[LeatherTrumpet]

JK retweeted this...

[LeatherTrumpet]

that bloke in USA swimming is a disgrace to sport and how he can brass neck his way to victory is actually disgusting

[Toy Soldier]

I don't think there's an answer to the sports issue. Trans women who were born male are at a distinct advantage in women's sports, but will be unable to compete in male physical sports at a high level after taking hormones. Conversely, Trans men who were born female are at a distinct advantage in women's sports because of the performance enhancing effects of testosterone - but its never going to be to the extent where they can compete in male sports. Both end up in a sort of middle ground. But there's (for obvious reasons) no desire for a 3rd category.

As I see it, unfortunately giving up competitive sport probably just has to be seen as a cost of transitioning. It doesn't mean people can't play sports as a hobby, but there's no way that it can be in ranked competition in the name of fairness. The evidence of the physical advantage is overwhelming.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think there's an answer to the sports issue. Trans women who were born male are at a distinct advantage in women's sports, but will be unable to compete in male physical sports at a high level after taking hormones.

That's their own fault if they're serious about their sports, they should forsake the hormones and compete against the other men to the best of their ability.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Conversely, Trans men who were born female are at a distinct advantage in women's sports because of the performance enhancing effects of testosterone - but its never going to be to the extent where they can compete in male sports.

Quite. The only "fair" way for the transmen themselves and the other women would be of they didn't medically transition, and stayed in the women's divisions.

[Niamh.]

Exactly TS, it is unfortunate but you can't sacrifice fairness and safety for women to accommodate a minority of people, I say you "can't " but I guess it should have been "shouldn't " because that's exactly what is happening

[Niamh.]

It's not even genuine transpeople that are the issue here Slim. I don't think transpeople are more predatory or more violent, the concerns are around creating loopholes for men who like to cheat or are predators easier access to do just that and it removes women and girls rights and ability to even challenge a man who's exploiting these loopholes, just look at the Wii Spa incident for evidence of that and how the women complaining were treated and it was tried to be played off in the media as a fake story which was untrue. Women's sex based safe spaces are there for a reason, why should we have to give up our safe guards to other people, why are our rights and our safety less important?

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's not even genuine transpeople that are the issue here Slim. I don't think transpeople are more predatory or more violent, the concerns are around creating loopholes for men who like to cheat or are predators easier access to do just that and it removes women and girls rights and ability to even challenge a man who's exploiting these loopholes, just look at the Wii Spa incident for evidence of that and how the women complaining were treated and it was tried to be played off in the media as a fake story which was untrue. Women's sex based safe spaces are there for a reason, why should we have to give up our safe guards to other people, why are our rights and our safety less important?

I genuinely understand where you're coming from. I believe unisex changing spaces in swimming pools are the highest location for sexual assaults in the whole "changing rooms and toilets" debate, in some data collection that was done a couple of years ago, so I understand the foundation your fears are coming from.

Your rights are not any less important, but we currently have a societal minority underclass with fewer rights, and so I think bringing these people actually in to society is just as important.

No one thinks because you call yourself a woman, that you're either mentally ill, an attention seeker, or a sexual predator; and yet that is the way some of the most vulnerable people in society are viewed.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I genuinely understand where you're coming from. I believe unisex changing spaces in swimming pools are the highest location for sexual assaults in the whole "changing rooms and toilets" debate, in some data collection that was done a couple of years ago, so I understand the foundation your fears are coming from.



You're rights are not any less important, but we currently have a societal minority underclass with fewer rights, and so I think bringing these people actually in to society is just as important.



No one thinks because you call yourself a woman, that you're either mentally ill, an attention seeker, or a sexual predator; and yet that is the way some of the most vulnerable people in society are viewed.

I'm not without sympathy for transpeople but the fact of the matter is I don't just call myself a woman, I am a woman in the biological sense and its in that sense where the need for these sex segregated areas, sports etc is.

[Toy Soldier]

The main focus of the current debates (that's having people branded supposed TERFs) is on self gender ID which would allow anyone to declare their own gender at any time. There is no data that shows genuine trans women are an increased risk to women. There is, horribly enough, ABUNDANT data that men are a risk to women, and that predatory men will be willing to use self-ID legislation to gain access to vulnerable women. As I've said before, I wish I still lived in a bubble where I didn't know this to be the case, but I don't. The things men will do, and have done, to gain access to victims is utterly mind-boggling.

Why people are determined to deflect away from this, I don't know. I can only assume its agenda based. I keep seeing people insisting blue in the face that Trans Rights Activists are not pursuing this legislative change. They 100% absolutely are and it wouldn't take long to look that up? So I can only assume that people simply don't want to know, or don't want to lose face by having to admit that it poses a massive risk to women's safety.

Ffs it poses a massive risk to actual transwomen's safety but no one cares! Self-ID and gender non-binary ideology trumps all other concerns. There are plenty of trans women and men who are vo ally critical of self-ID and the dogma of current gender ideology. They're branded, dismissed, ridiculed and insulted along with the "TERFs" for Doing Trans All Wrong.

[Kizzy]

I'm not happy with being assigned a label. I'm not 'a person with a cervix' or a 'cis' I am a woman. I'm very proud to be a woman and I object totally to anyone foisting their made up terms on me.

[Jordan.]

[Cherie]

Are the little ladies now been told we don’t know what we are standing up against...what next

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Jordan.

She's made it abundantly clear that she isn't...