[Redway]

Yup, I’m talking to you, Ollie. Get yourself in here pronto. Let’s have a bank-holiday Monday debate.

[Oliver_W]

Because it literally is?

A discordance between mind and body can hardly be called anything else.

I know I've used this comparison a zillion times already, but when there's someone whose brain is telling them they're fat despite all evidence, there's no controversy about acknowledging they have a mental disorder.

Why should it be different with gender?

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Because it literally is?

A discordance between mind and body can hardly be called anything else.

I know I've used this comparison a zillion times already, but when there's someone whose brain is telling them they're fat despite all evidence, there's no controversy about acknowledging they have a mental disorder.

Why should it be different with gender?

Interestingly I work with two lovely ladies , both charming and intelligent… both are convinced they are too far and are constantly dieting despite being painfully , painfully thin .

I don’t know where to look when they refuse a piece of cake from someone and say “ no , no I have to be so careful…I need to lose a bit ..”


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[Redway]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Because it literally is?

A discordance between mind and body can hardly be called anything else.

I know I've used this comparison a zillion times already, but when there's someone whose brain is telling them they're fat despite all evidence, there's no controversy about acknowledging they have a mental disorder.

Why should it be different with gender?

What would you do if one of your kids outed themselves as trans. to you? Part of me dreads to think, I can’t lie. I know the likes of Soldier Boy wouldn’t be too happy about it but no-one’s made quite as much of a name for being an educated anti-trans. person as you.

[Redway]

And why am I only just realising that Soulja Boy (who actually came out with some decent beats circa 2006/2007) is a totally cool side-name for “Soldier Boy”?

Ey? How about that, T.S.?

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Redway

And why am I only just realising that Soulja Boy (who actually came out with some decent beats circa 2006/2007) is a totally cool side-name for “Soldier Boy”?

Ey? How about that, T.S.?

Youtube video

Doesn't have the same emotional impact as Martika, I can't lie. We never win, but the battle wages on...

Miss you, little trooper. *sniffle*

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Redway

What would you do if one of your kids outed themselves as trans. to you? Part of me dreads to think, I can’t lie. I know the likes of Soldier Boy wouldn’t be too happy about it but no-one’s made quite as much of a name for being an educated anti-trans. person as you.

Well I've never claimed to be particularly educated on the subject

To answer your question, I'd be far from thrilled, just like if my hypothetic children had any other form of dysmorphia or mental disorders. I wouldn’t disown them or anything over it.

Due to the way my siblings and I were brought up -a combination of self-acceptance and self-criticism, ultimately amounting to self awareness- and little to no unsupervised internet access before sixteen, none of us would "be" trans if it didn't come from a place of body dysmorphia, we wouldn't fall for social contagian or anything like that.

But in the same way the world -and internet!- was a different place now to what it was when we (my siblings and I) were.young teens, it may well be different again when my future children are at that age.
So while I like to think I'd replicate (within reason and context) the same techniques when I have kids, it might not necessarily be possible.
But raising kids is (often) a two person thing, and while I'm currently single who knows what sitch I'll be when I do have kids.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Well I've never claimed to be particularly educated on the subject

To answer your question, I'd be far from thrilled, just like if my hypothetic children had any other form of dysmorphia or mental disorders. I wouldn’t disown them or anything over it.

Due to the way my siblings and I were brought up -a combination of self-acceptance and self-criticism, ultimately amounting to self awareness- and little to no unsupervised internet access before sixteen, none of us would "be" trans if it didn't come from a place of body dysmorphia, we wouldn't fall for social contagian or anything like that.

But in the same way the world -and internet!- was a different place now to what it was when we (my siblings and I) were.young teens, it may well be different again when my future children are at that age.
So while I like to think I'd replicate (within reason and context) the same techniques when I have kids, it might not necessarily be possible.
But raising kids is (often) a two person thing, and while I'm currently single who knows what sitch I'll be when I do have kids.

I meant in general. So I kind of have to take you more seriously than some next person who just spouts predictable transphobia. I figured there had to be a reason behind you being so disapproving of the trans. agenda.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Redway

I meant in general. So I kind of have to take you more seriously than some next person who just spouts predictable transphobia. I figured there had to be a reason behind you being so disapproving of the trans. agenda.

Gotcha.

Well I'd be equally disapproving if anorexia was being portrayed as being "stunning amd brave" and if people were being prescribed emerics to achieve their "true bodies."

There was a time when self-harm was ... more than normallsed and almost encouraged by Tumblr groups, where pictures and stories were exchanged etc. I hated that too.

But taking part in either of those things doesn't contradict anyone else's rights, in the way that transwomen in women's spaces overrights women's rights to woman-only spaces.

[LeatherTrumpet]

mental disorder exacerbated by social media and algorithms and in the case of the USA greedy medical practitioners who can see an easy buck from deluded and misinformed parents

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

mental disorder exacerbated by social media and algorithms and in the case of the USA greedy medical practitioners who can see an easy buck from deluded and misinformed parents

Gonna use this to add there's an element of social contagion to it too.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Gonna use this to add there's an element of social contagion to it too.

as witness the regionality of it in the USA

[Soldier Boy]

I think if you strip it right back, at its most simple level actual transgenderism is a form of body dysmorphia.

The gender stuff that doesn't include a desire to physically transition is something different and I would say largely social. Not a "mental illness" in any more meaningful a way than, for example, any religion and frankly there'd be far fewer problems if it was simply considered a belief system in the same way as a religion.

There is of course always the risk that the social aspects can develop into full dysmorphia especially if the individual already has underlying mental health issues like depression, anxiety, trauma or general identity issues.

[Zizu]

Slight tangent so apologies…

So all these ( many thousands) of girls / young women who are identifying as male and want to be seen as a boy .. changing their name etc …. would they have gone under the lesbian banner before all this surfaced ??

If that’s the case in a few decades their may not be any lesbians … just trans men dating other trans men ??


Just thinking aloud .. I’m still struggling to get my head around all this ..


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[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Slight tangent so apologies…

So all these ( many thousands) of girls / young women who are identifying as male and want to be seen as a boy .. changing their name etc …. would they have gone under the lesbian banner before all this surfaced ??

If that’s the case in a few decades their may not be any lesbians … just trans men dating other trans men ??


Just thinking aloud .. I’m still struggling to get my head around all this ..


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No they wouldn’t have been referred to as lesbians, they’d still have been trans, lesbians aren’t going anywhere

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Liam-

No they wouldn’t have been referred to as lesbians, they’d still have been trans, lesbians aren’t going anywhere

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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No

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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No but the rates of teenage girls identifying as trans-male has increased exponentially over the last few years and is not being properly addressed in ways that actually consider the psychology and mental health of young females, because of the blind push for "gender affirming" in the medical community and schools.

Don't listen to Liam on this stuff Zizu, he's an unfortunate combination of ignorant and biased. I highly doubt he knows anything at all about what's going on with teenagers in schools over the last few years, other than what he's read online, from very select sources.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

No but the rates of teenage girls identifying as trans-male has increased exponentially over the last few years and is not being properly addressed in ways that actually consider the psychology and mental health of young females, because of the blind push for "gender affirming" in the medical community and schools.

Don't listen to Liam on this stuff Zizu, he's an unfortunate combination of ignorant and biased. I highly doubt he knows anything at all about what's going on with teenagers in schools over the last few years, other than what he's read online, from very select sources.

Teens identifying as the opposite sex at school are just kids enjoying the attention they wouldnt have otherwise.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?

Not really.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Redway

Not really.

I’d regard 2018 as very recent I’m thinking back decades


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[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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I think it's more of a recent trend for the Media to focus on the Trans community so much.

The Trans community has been out there in the world since I've been growing up anyway, and I'm going to guess that they were around before I was born.

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Liam-

No they wouldn’t have been referred to as lesbians, they’d still have been trans, lesbians aren’t going anywhere

Meanwhile in the real world, lots of young gay girls are going down the route of identifying as male, due to a combination of current social zeitgeist and complicated issues around patriarchal values and internalised misogyny.

Most of them grow out of it after a couple of years.

The bigger concern though is the lesbians being branded transphobic or bigots for not wanting to sleep with trans women.

[parmnion]

Anyone wanting to cut bits of themselves need there head checked. Imagine someone wanting to cut both their arms off! Would you just accept their wishes, or would you think, "you are nuts mate, you need your head checked"

[Redway]

All I can say is that the “T” in LGBT has been very normalised since (and obviously including) 2018 especially so you have to mind how you talk about these things with other people (not just in the office). A lot of black people drop subtly homophobic remarks in the workplace and think it’s okay because “black people are naturally more homophobic than whites” and use religion to justify it. I actually don’t mind the bit about defending your religious beliefs when questioned but you can’t just freely talk like you’re in Ogbomosho, Port Harcourt, Accra, Memphis or Montego Bay when you’re working in an environment where by-and-large LGBT stuff has never been more accepted or normalised (and probably rightly so to an extent). There’s so much I could say about the complex issue of many black people expecting to get a free pass for being more inherently homophobic as someone who’s been affiliated with and exposed to all sides of the cultural coin of life over the years but what I will say is that a lot of black LGBT people carry with them a lot of internalised homophobia and whatnot because they’re just used to being in an environment where they’re not accepted whatsoever by at least 80% of other people most ethnically similar to them. If you talk out of line on the job and offend people on the job you’re likely to be sacked and it’s not a case of “oh, it’s because I’m black, innit?” No. It’s a case of you not being able to keep your mouth shut and respecting what’s contextually appropriate. You can talk how you want about sexual minorities at home or in the church but not in open spaces.