Has JK Rowling's transphobia put you off Harry Potter?

[Daniel.]

Some people are saying they can't enjoy Harry Potter as much as they did due to JK's bigotry - however I am of the opinion that I like the art, not the artist

[MB.]

tbh it was rubbish in the first place

[Oliver_W]

What's she said that's transphobic? It's all a storm in a teacup, atop a mountain made from a molehill.

[Liam-]

I will always appreciate the Harry Potter for what it is, but I won’t support anything she does in the future

[Scarlett.]

I liked Harry Potter, but I will not be having any more to do with it, since the money would go to her.

[Samm]

yeah similar to how i’m a great fan of mein kampt but hate the author

[Swan]

Never liked the Harry Potter series in the first place, so not a dilemma i have to face. Though i don't think what she said was that bad in any case.

[Marsh.]

Love both. :love:

[Oliver_W]

Though i don't think what she said was that bad in any case.

Exactly, what's all the fuss about? "Women and transwomen have different biology, and only one of these can menstrate." Yeah, she's practically re-igniting the ovens in Auschwitz...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Love her even more

[Shaun]

If it didn't, the films being on every ****ing weekend for the entirety of the 2010s on ITV sure did

[Ammi]

...before these times when so many people’s thoughts on so many things are known to us all/...social media times and the public tweeting of things etc...’these conversations and opinions’ would have all been had in private over a glass of wine, I guess...so I have no idea about an author’s personal views on specific things in the past..?..I would just absorb a story that they had written...I don’t know whether I would continue being a fan of hers because I’m not a particular fan as such anyway so I doubt know if any admiration I may have had, would feel ‘tainted’ in any way..that’s all for each person to decide individually, obviously...I do understand why an appreciation of her talents would continue also for those who have followed her work...

[bots]

Did Kevin Spacey's films and series suddenly become crap after we heard what he had been up to? No ... he is still a good actor. Everyone does something that we disagree with if we look hard enough.

I was a big fan of a guitarist. He highlighted his political views on twitter and I thought ... what an ass hole ... but his music is still great and he is still a wonderful guitarist

[Ammi]

Did Kevin Spacey's films and series suddenly become crap after we heard what he had been up to? No ... he is still a good actor. Everyone does something that we disagree with if we look hard enough.

I was a big fan of a guitarist. He highlighted his political views on twitter and I thought ... what an ass hole ... but his music is still great and he is still a wonderful guitarist

...it didn’t change what an excellent actor I think he is, he’s one of my all time favourites...but I have no wish to watch any of his movies again...sexual assault is on another level and really can’t be compared in the same way imo...

[Cal.]

If it didn't, the films being on every ****ing weekend for the entirety of the 2010s on ITV sure did

Lmao so true

[Amy Jade]

Harry Potter is overrated crap anyway

[DouglasS]

I like Harry Potter and JK Rowling :clap1:

[Nicky91]

Harry Potter is overrated crap anyway

+1

that AND Lord of the Rings, simply because their movies take way too long :idc:

[arista]

Good Debate on GMBHD itv about this.

Photo from twitter


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EiBQEH5XkAAKPSr?format=jpg&name=900x900

[arista]

1306133326332387328

[The Slim Reaper]

Arista with his fortnite codes :laugh:

[arista]

1306135490572189696

Yes Piers you ain't a sis.

[arista]

Arista with his fortnite codes :laugh:

Not my TV you fool.

[The Slim Reaper]

Not my TV you fool.

Easy, tiger :fist:

[Niamh.]

The Jk Rowling uproar is getting ridiculous now, the killer in the story wore a wig and thats her being transphobic? Get a grip

[Jake.]

The Jk Rowling uproar is getting ridiculous now, the killer in the story wore a wig and thats her being transphobic? Get a grip

It’s more her previous transphobic comments which is the issue

[Liam-]

The Jk Rowling uproar is getting ridiculous now, the killer in the story wore a wig and thats her being transphobic? Get a grip

No, the killer is a man who pretends to be a woman in order to kill women, it directly correlates to her transphobic views she’s been spewing, it’s almost like she’s done it cause she knew she had a book on the subject coming up she wanted to sell

[Swan]

No, the killer is a man who pretends to be a woman in order to kill women, it directly correlates to her transphobic views she’s been spewing, it’s almost like she’s done it cause she knew she had a book on the subject coming up she wanted to sell

So did Norman Bates, but nobody accused Alfred Hitchcock and Anthony Perkins of being transphobic. Stories are just that, stories.

[Niamh.]

1305851214756753411?s=20

Looks like its affecting her sales.....

[Amy Jade]

So did Norman Bates, but nobody accused Alfred Hitchcock and Anthony Perkins of being transphobic. Stories are just that, stories.

Alfred Hitchcock hadn't said some questionable things about the trans community months before though.

[Liam-]

So did Norman Bates, but nobody accused Alfred Hitchcock and Anthony Perkins of being transphobic. Stories are just that, stories.

I don’t know much about either of those people, did they wage public wars on the trans community to build a platform for those things to be sold?

[Niamh.]

Alfred Hitchcock hadn't said some questionable things about the trans community months before though.Like women should be referred to as women rather than people who menstrate? Shocking

[Swan]

Alfred Hitchcock hadn't said some questionable things about the trans community months before though.

I don’t know much about either of those people, did they wage public wars on the trans community to build a platform for those things to be sold?

Did she really 'wage war' on the trans community though?

[Niamh.]

Did she really 'wage war' on the trans community though?Rose, a transwomen who was on GMB doesn't think so but that man does

[Liam-]

Did she really 'wage war' on the trans community though?

Yes

[Niamh.]

No she did not Liam

[Toy Soldier]

No because I don't engage in tribalistic hivemind nonsense. I don't agree with everything JK has had to say and I also don't think she's a transphobe - shocking, eh? It's almost as if you can hear two sides of a debate, see some truth in both and not start hating everyone who has opinions that don't align with your own even if you find them hurtful. Anyone else remember when that was a thing? Ahh nostalgia...

[Liam-]

No she did not Liam

It’s okay if you want to think that

[Toy Soldier]

Did she really 'wage war' on the trans community though?It's an absolutely flabbergasting level of hyperbole. She things that there are issues where trans rights, women's right and safeguarding rights collide (there are) and admittedly she has, in my opinion, unfortunately been drawn into "the battle" a little after having a lot of aggression heaped on for those opinions. Some of what she's had to say since it all started kicking off has come off as defensive and not well thought through.

I think in broad strokes though, she sees herself as being in a position to ensure that a spotlight remains on women's concerns around these issues and honestly I think anyone who doesn't have a personal stake in the game sees that that is reasonable. I have serious doubts about anyone who puts there fingers in their ears and chants "there ARE no concerns transphobe!".

[Toy Soldier]

It’s okay if you want to think thatAnd it's OK if you want to claim it without bothering to provide examples or back it up as a reasonable claim. I wouldn't really expect anyone to listen though. You can't just say "X is true" and then when people say "in what way?" you respond "just is".

Well. Again, you can but it doesn't really have much substance, does it.

[Liam-]

And it's OK if you want to claim it without bothering to provide examples or back it up as a reasonable claim. I wouldn't really expect anyone to listen though. You can't just say "X is true" and then when people say "in what way?" you respond "just is".

Well. Again, you can but it doesn't really have much substance, does it.

Well that’s the point isn’t it, everyone who doesn’t agree with you or JK herself have all been labelled as sexist, emotional or extreme so, yeah, there’s no point in providing anything.

I’m not here to convince you or anybody else, I just give my opinions, not my problem if it’s not good enough for you

[Toy Soldier]

Can I also point out that the original "psycho" actually DOES come off as a little transphobic (I think the series handled it better), as does "Silence Of The Lambs" (more than a little, let's face it... The guy is skinning women and wearing their skin because he has gender dysphoria)?

Did either legitimately have a profoundly negative impact on the trans community? That is an actual question by the way; maybe they did, I don't know for a fact that they didn't, but I have to say I haven't heard many people legitimately scared that actual transwomen are going to start Buffalo Billing women.

[Nicky91]

https://twitter.com/DailyMailCeleb/status/1306225088627462147

:skull:

[Toy Soldier]

Well that’s the point isn’t it, everyone who doesn’t agree with you or JK herself have all been labelled as sexist, emotional or extreme so, yeah, there’s no point in providing anything.



I’m not here to convince you or anybody else, I just give my opinions, not my problem if it’s not good enough for you

But I just said that I don't agree with everything JK has said or done :think:. I just don't think it's an either-or, I don't think people who disagree with her are extreme, I do think people who automatically scream "transphobe!" are extreme and a bit sheepy and I do think that people who are unwilling to even discuss the issues tend to have an emotional investment that effects that objectivity on the subject. The claim that "we won't allow anyone to even discuss the possibility that there are conflicts of rights and safeguarding issues because we already know that there aren't any, just cos we think there won't be and its offensive to wonder if there are and you're a transphobe if you think otherwise" isn't a defensible position. It's only ever going to be accepted as any sort of position by other people who hold the SAME position, and frankly that group is starting to look increasingly outnumbered.

I think dogmatically holding that ground at this point is going to untimately be counter-productive and the discussion is going to be had nonetheless, but with lacking representation on one side, who refuses to engage.

That's just my opinion though of course.

[Swan]

Can I also point out that the original "psycho" actually DOES come off as a little transphobic (I think the series handled it better), as does "Silence Of The Lambs" (more than a little, let's face it... The guy is skinning women and wearing their skin because he has gender dysphoria)?

Did either legitimately have a profoundly negative impact on the trans community? That is an actual question by the way; maybe they did, I don't know for a fact that they didn't, but I have to say I haven't heard many people legitimately scared that actual transwomen are going to start Buffalo Billing women.

I think it all boils down to if the story has merit. Psycho made perfect sense, for example. I think both films raised issues on mental health, rather than being transphobic.

Does JKR's new story have merit, i guess that's the question.

Judging on what she said previously, i don't get the big deal, it's outrage overload, as you said.

[arista]

Alfred Hitchcock hadn't said some questionable things about the trans community months before though.


No way back then
better years
he was thinking of his next Film, instead.


He was a Top Director
great at shocking you.

[Liam-]

But I just said that I don't agree with everything JK has said or done :think:. I just don't think it's an either-or, I don't think people who disagree with her are extreme, I do think people who automatically scream "transphobe!" are extreme and a bit sheepy and I do think that people who are unwilling to even discuss the issues tend to have an emotional investment that effects that objectivity on the subject. The claim that "we won't allow anyone to even discuss the possibility that there are conflicts of rights and safeguarding issues because we already know that there aren't any, just cos we think there won't be and its offensive to wonder if there are and you're a transphobe if you think otherwise" isn't a defensible position. It's only ever going to be accepted as any sort of position by other people who hold the SAME position, and frankly that group is starting to look increasingly outnumbered.

I think dogmatically holding that ground at this point is going to untimately be counter-productive and the discussion is going to be had nonetheless, but with lacking representation on one side, who refuses to engage.

That's just my opinion though of course.

Do you actually believe that people like JK and the LGB alliance would be willing to sit and listen to trans representatives and their opinions and experiences? I personally don’t think so, as someone with ‘no chips in the game’ It seems like people want to make all the decisions about the future of trans rights, without having to actually think about trans people themselves.

At the end of the day JK is a business woman, now that her new book is coming out, it patently obvious to me that she’s done everything she’s done and said over the past few months, to garner whatever interest she could to further her sales, it’s the same as Piers Morgan stoking they ‘woke culture war’ to promote his new book and Lawrence Fox turning into a right wing rent-a-gob to elevate a flagging career, it’s a shame she’s had to go down this route because she’s a decent writer.

[Oliver_W]

Yes

What has she said to make you think that?

[Oliver_W]

It’s more her previous transphobic comments which is the issue

Like what?

[Niamh.]

It’s okay if you want to think that

Thanks Liam

[Toy Soldier]

Do you actually believe that people like JK and the LGB alliance would be willing to sit and listen to trans representatives and their opinions and experiences? I personally don’t think so, as someone with not chips in the game’ It seems like people want to make all the decisions about the future of trans rights, without having to actually think about trans people themselves. I see plenty of people (it's never going to be "all") willing to have open discussions and I see that willingness being branded transphobic, often aggressively, often without justification. I find "groups" and "alliances" to be inherently prescriptive and dogmatic, but yes I suspect Rowling would happily engage in individual discussion. At least, I've not seen anything to suggest otherwise.



At the end of the day JK is a business woman, now that her new book is coming out, it patently obvious to me that she’s done everything she’s done and said over the past few months, to garner whatever interest she could to further her sales, it’s the same as Piers Morgan stoking they ‘woke culture war’ to promote his new book and Lawrence Fox turning into a right wing rent-a-gob to elevate a flagging career, it’s a shame she’s had to go down this route because she’s a decent writer.

I see plenty of women - women who are open-minded and generally very accepting of social justice issues - expressing concern on this one and specifically expressing concern about being attacked for having concerns... So no, I don't think it's the same issue snd I don't think it's possible to dodge it by sweepingly branding people who are demonstrably not bigots as small minded or bigoted. It's just a go-to tactic because, yes, on social justice issues it is too often the case. But it doesn't fit here. It's being shoehorned. Unsuccessfully.

[Liam-]

And there are plenty of trans people who are willing to discuss it and share their experiences, but they’re conveniently ignored in favour of highlighting those extreme minorities that name call and troll people online, to push a certain narrative, why are trans people and advocates held to a higher standard of how they should compromise and listen, to those who actively want their rights changed or taken away?

[Niamh.]

Do you actually believe that people like JK and the LGB alliance would be willing to sit and listen to trans representatives and their opinions and experiences? I personally don’t think so, as someone with ‘no chips in the game’ It seems like people want to make all the decisions about the future of trans rights, without having to actually think about trans people themselves.

At the end of the day JK is a business woman, now that her new book is coming out, it patently obvious to me that she’s done everything she’s done and said over the past few months, to garner whatever interest she could to further her sales, it’s the same as Piers Morgan stoking they ‘woke culture war’ to promote his new book and Lawrence Fox turning into a right wing rent-a-gob to elevate a flagging career, it’s a shame she’s had to go down this route because she’s a decent writer.

Totally disagree with that, JK Rowling is pretty left and has spent a lot of her time trying to appease people by making Dumbledore gay, Hermione could be black etc. She's also back tracked on a couple of likes on this debate previously so I think she was very reluctant to publicly get involved in the discussion for a long time for fear of this kind of backlash, ultimately though she's decided to speak :shrug:

[Liam-]

Totally disagree with that, JK Rowling is pretty left and has spent a lot of her time trying to appease people by making Dumbledore gay, Hermione could be black etc. She's also back tracked on a couple of likes on this debate previously so I think she was very reluctant to publicly get involved in the discussion for a long time for fear of this kind of backlash, ultimately though she's decided to speak :shrug:

She didn’t do that to ‘appease’ people, because there were never any demand for those things to be true, in both of those occasions she used minorities as a token to try and keep herself in the limelight and give herself a good ‘ally’ appearance, when personally I don’t think that could be further from the truth

[Niamh.]

And there are plenty of trans people who are willing to discuss it and share their experiences, but they’re conveniently ignored in favour of highlighting those extreme minorities that name call and troll people online, to push a certain narrative, why are trans people and advocates held to a higher standard of how they should compromise and listen, to those who actively want their rights changed or taken away?

There was a transwoman on GMB.who happened to back JK Rowling :shrug:

[Liam-]

There was a transwoman on GMB.who happened to back JK Rowling :shrug:

Okay? Trump has black supporters, what difference does that make?

[Niamh.]

She didn’t do that to ‘appease’ people, because there were never any demand for those things to be true, in both of those occasions she used minorities as a token to try and keep herself in the limelight and give herself a good ‘ally’ appearance, when personally I don’t think that could be further from the truth

https://harrypotter.fandom.com/f/p/2913333992918877851

https://www.wired.com/story/the-internet-made-dumbledore-gay/

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/05/harry-potter-jk-rowling-apologizes-killing-remus-lupin-sirius-black-gay

[Toy Soldier]

And there are plenty of trans people who are willing to discuss it and share their experiences, but they’re conveniently ignored in favour of highlighting those extreme minorities that name call and troll people online, to push a certain narrative, why are trans people and advocates held to a higher standard of how they should compromise and listen, to those who actively want their rights changed or taken away?

Online spaces are hardly the best place to have any discussion and that's actually one of my criticisms of JK Rowling; taking this to her Twitter which obviously has absolutely massive mainstream reach.

But the rhetoric and actions when it comes to trans activism are also affecting academics, professionals, evidence-based practice and areas that have direct safeguarding implications and that, I believe, is what has many women and child advocates very worried and what I think they frankly should be concerned about. "But it's offensive and transphobic to say that there might be safeguarding concerns!!" just isn't good enough. It doesn't matter that it's offensive. People's lived experience is important, people's opinions are valuable but the second that start affecting or seeking to affect professional spaces or policy whilst refusing proper scrutiny it is a step too far... And that absolutely is happening. Self ID is an absolute minefield and nightmare for safeguarding and things like inpatient mental health. Universal unquestioning acceptance (as pushed by mermaids) is a complete disaster for child mental health. These are just a few examples of stances that are branded "transphobic" even when it's qualified professionals involved in the discussion.

[Niamh.]

Okay? Trump has black supporters, what difference does that make?

So you've just said Trans people are willing to discuss it and speak about their experiences, I name one who has on the same show but her experiences don't count because she doesn't share your opinion on it....okay

[Liam-]

https://harrypotter.fandom.com/f/p/2913333992918877851

https://www.wired.com/story/the-internet-made-dumbledore-gay/

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/05/harry-potter-jk-rowling-apologizes-killing-remus-lupin-sirius-black-gay

I’m not quite sure what they are meant to be proving?

[Liam-]

So you've just said Trans people are willing to discuss it and speak about their experiences, I name one who has on the same show but her experiences don't count because she doesn't share your opinion on it....okay

That’s not what I said though was it? You said a trans woman agreed with JK, as if that absolves her of everything people feel about her, not all trans people will agree on everything.

My point was, trump has black supporters, but it doesn’t make him any less racist.

[Elliot]

People wanted fleshed out good lgbtq representation, not off hand pandering

[Niamh.]

I’m not quite sure what they are meant to be proving?

"because there were never any demand for those things to be true"

Yes there was, denying that is absurd, it's literally what people have always said about her reasoning in making Dumbledore gay

[Niamh.]

That’s not what I said though was it? You said a trans woman agreed with JK, as if that absolves her of everything people feel about her, not all trans people will agree on everything.

My point was, trump has black supporters, but it doesn’t make him any less racist.

Trump has nothing to do with this discussion. Comparing the two is laughable. Rose speaks so much sense, have you even listened to her?

[Liam-]

"because there were never any demand for those things to be true"

Yes there was, denying that is absurd, it's literally what people have always said about her reasoning in making Dumbledore gay

People wrote fan fiction so JK made Dumbledore gay is a take tbh.

She used gay people as tokens to try and enhance her profit and her standing in society.

[Liam-]

Trump has nothing to do with this discussion. Comparing the two is laughable. Rose speaks so much sense, have you even listened to her?

It’s not laughable, saying ‘but a transwoman agreed with her!’ Doesn’t mean the way she’s gone about her ‘concerns’ about the trans community is right or shouldn’t be criticised

[Toy Soldier]

Trump has nothing to do with this discussion. Comparing the two is laughable. Rose speaks so much sense, have you even listened to her?Indeed, Trump just gives a constant barrage of absolute nonsense whereas JK the worst I can really say is that I sometimes think "Hmmmm I think that's maybe a bit much" on a few of her points, but even then they tend to come with a thought process and reasoning behind them. I think that's the point really. No one should be dismissed out of hand if they've offered their thought process and reasoning - they've literally given you the thinking that can be countered and picked apart if you want to do that, to demonstrate to them and others where their logic has holes in it or is flawed. That's what a discussion is.

Part of the issue wuite clearly is that people DON'T do the reading - their allegiances tell them "this is bad stuff" so they repeat "this is bad stuff" and it shows. Because of the above. No reasoning on why it's bad; just "It's offensive. It's transphobia". How is it transphobia? - "Just is. Don't you know people are dying?".

Trying to compare it to Trump-style racist rants is purely false equivalency with intent - "cos we all know Trump is bad. You don't want to be seen as someone who would agree with a person like Trump, do you?"

[Niamh.]

It’s not laughable, saying ‘but a transwoman agreed with her!’ Doesn’t mean the way she’s gone about her ‘concerns’ about the trans community is right or shouldn’t be criticised

Hang on a second there Liam, you are misrepresenting how this conversation went, I didn't say "but a transwoman agreed with her" I said there was a transwoman giving her opinion on the show this morning in direct reply to you saying trans people weren't being listened to, it's not my fault that transwoman didn't share your opinion :shrug:

And for the record I don't need validation from trans people to believe women's and children's rights need to be taken in to account when discussing solutions that will work for everyone

[Toy Soldier]

It’s not laughable, saying ‘but a transwoman agreed with her!’ Doesn’t mean the way she’s gone about her ‘concerns’ about the trans community is right or shouldn’t be criticisedYes but criticising would involve pointing out flawed, biased or insufficiently backed up thinking to criticise. "Das transphobia!" / "She is a transphobe!" / "That is offensive to transpeople!" is not criticism.

[Liam-]

Hang on a second there Liam, you are misrepresenting how this conversation went, I didn't say "but a transwoman agreed with her" I said there was a transwoman giving her opinion on the show this morning in direct reply to you saying trans people weren't being listened to, it's not my fault that transwoman didn't share your opinion :shrug:

And for the record I don't need validation from trans people to believe women's and children's rights need to be taken in to account when discussing solutions that will work for everyone

Right, but with all due respect, would you be highlighting her if she had disagreed with you and Jk? I very much doubt it, that’s my point, trans people who genuinely want to have a discussion about it, won’t be acknowledged by people like JK because it doesn’t fit their narrative that trans people and advocates are reactionary monsters who just want to abuse people

[Toy Soldier]

won’t be acknowledged by people like JK because it doesn’t fit their narrative that trans people are reactionary monsters who just want to abuse people

But there is literally no indication that this is the case, nor any attempt to demonstrate that this is the case other than "a feeling" - WHERE has there been any indication that JK Rowling isn't willing to discuss the issue with transpeople who want to have an actual evidence-based discussion about it (not a feelings-based rant). I'm actually asking. Can you point me to it? Because otherwise the talk of there being "a narrative that trans people are monsters who want to abuse people"... does feel pretty reactionary.

[Niamh.]

Right, but with all due respect, would you be highlighting her if she had disagreed with you and Jk? I very much doubt it, that’s my point, trans people who genuinely want to have a discussion about it, won’t be acknowledged by people like JK because it doesn’t fit their narrative that trans people and advocates are reactionary monsters who just want to abuse people

Well that isn't my narrative, infact my thoughts on it are very much that transpeople are going to end up being damaged as much by transactivists. I would love a solution to this that is beneficial to everyone and I would love to hear a good discussion about it without the word terf or transphobe being thrown around every two minutes. I absolutely do not think all transpeople are reactionary monsters wanting to abuse people. I'm only ever speaking about the large vocal social media folk here who are taking over this whole topic and trying to intimidate people into shutting up

[Toy Soldier]

I think one of the key issues here is that for there to be a discussion at all there needs to be acknowledgement that many women (and others in support) have concerns, and that having concerns is not inherently transphobic. And there needs to be acknowledgement that transpeople obviously have concerns about their own rights too. And acceptance that those concerns have areas where they collide in complicated ways.

There is no discussion to be had with anyone who can't accept those basic premises to be honest, on either side.

[Niamh.]

I think one of the key issues here is that for there to be a discussion at all there needs to be acknowledgement that many women (and others in support) have concerns, and that having concerns is not inherently transphobic. And there needs to be acknowledgement that transpeople obviously have concerns about their own rights too. And acceptance that those concerns have areas where they collide in complicated ways.

There is no discussion to be had with anyone who can't accept those basic premises to be honest, on either side.

absolutely agree

[Tom4784]

I enjoy the stories but I won't put another penny in her pockets. I can appreciate Harry Potter and will continue to appreciate it since I already own the books and not using them doesn't really affect her but I won't contribute anymore money to the franchise.

[Liam-]

People can have as many discussions as they like, that’s not really the issue, people wanting pre-existing rights for a minority to change because it suddenly makes them uncomfortable, it’s discriminatory, no matter which way you swing it.

I don’t feel like transpeople that disagree with the likes of JK would ever get a fair shot of putting their points across, hence why people choose instead to focus on the negative minority, with the trolls as if they represent the entire trans population.

Saying the extremely vocal minority are going to do more harm to the trans community than the people wanting to strip their rights away is to me completely disingenuous and just a way to shift eyes away from people’s ignorance

I know I get called all sorts when I do this, but I’ll do it again, what would people’s genuine reaction be to gays rights being questioned because straight people don’t want to be associated with them?

[Niamh.]

People can have as many discussions as they like, that’s not really the issue, people wanting pre-existing rights for a minority to change because it suddenly makes them uncomfortable, it’s discriminatory, no matter which way you swing it.

I don’t feel like transpeople that disagree with the likes of JK would ever get a fair shot of putting their points across, hence why people choose instead to focus on the negative minority, with the trolls as if they represent the entire trans population.

Saying the extremely vocal minority are going to do more harm to the trans community than the people wanting to strip their rights away is to me completely disingenuous and just a way to shift eyes away from people’s ignorance.

I know I get called all sorts when I do this, but I’ll do it again, what would people’s genuine reaction be to gays rights being questioned because straight people don’t want to be associated with them?

What rights? Because those are conflicting rights as far as I can see. Sex is a protected characteristic in law, gender is not, so how is gender trumping sex in sex based sports for example? Also, people only "suddenly" felt uncomfortable when self ID became a thing, which is not legal actually in the UK as far as I'm aware? so that wouldn't be a pre-existing right

I'm not even going to dignify the last part of your post with a response tbqh

[Oliver_W]

People can have as many discussions as they like, that’s not really the issue, people wanting pre-existing rights for a minority to change because it suddenly makes them uncomfortable, it’s discriminatory, no matter which way you swing it.


You mean like women losing their single sex spaces?

[Liam-]

You mean like women losing their single sex spaces?

Like?

[Toy Soldier]

People can have as many discussions as they like, that’s not really the issue, people wanting pre-existing rights for a minority to change because it suddenly makes them uncomfortable, it’s discriminatory, no matter which way you swing it.

Thats not all that's happening and a blinkered insistence that it is doesn't really help anyone in my opinion.

I think there's a lot of conflation with other minority groups on this issue and a reluctance to accept that in some really fundamental ways, it is a very different issue.

Comparing to gay rights, for example. So someone comes out as a gay man... They continue to occupy the "man" space, obviously still being a man, and part of that discussion of issues that affect men.

They also create the secondary space "gay men". Only gay men are in that space. They rightly then get to insist that gay men's voices are the valid voice in that space, because it is their space.


Trans is inherently more complicated on a fundamental level. A person identifies as trans - what space do they occupy? Firstly they occupy the secondary space "transpeople" as above, transpeople are the valid voice there, in issues affecting transpeople only. Whether or not they continue to keep a foot in the "men" space I would say is optional; their voice is obviously just as valid on for example men's health issues but I appreciate that many don't want to keep a stake there and that's totally individual choice. Now the contentious part; the space they're seeking to move to, unlike gay men, is NOT unoccupied space. The space they want to occupy is "women". And that also, is fine! However once they are in that space they have to accept that it is NOT empty space, and that they DO have to share the conversation with the women who already occupy that space, on issues that affect both. There's no reasonable way around it.

[Oliver_W]

Like?

Sports, bathrooms, changing areas. Transwomen having access to those compromises the female-only nature of those places.

[Liam-]

Sports, bathrooms, changing areas. Transwomen having access to those compromises the female-only nature of those places.

Trans women have been using female changing areas and bathrooms for as long as I can remember, are you suggesting trans women, even those who’ve had the full procedure shouldn’t be allowed to use them anymore? Because that would be discriminatory Oliver

[DouglasS]

The Jk Rowling uproar is getting ridiculous now, the killer in the story wore a wig and thats her being transphobic? Get a grip

I agree... Hollywood films and fantastic books/movies have had men dressing as women / being transvestites forever.

People can’t distinguish a transvestite and a transgendered person.

Soon drag will be transphobic? Or surely drag is transphobic by these people who are complaining..

[Niamh.]

Trans women have been using female changing areas and bathrooms for as long as I can remember, are you suggesting trans women, even those who’ve had the full procedure shouldn’t be allowed to use them anymore?

I'm a fair bit older than you Liam and I also remember this even further back, it was never an issue and really still isn't! But what do you think has caused the issue now?

[Toy Soldier]

Trans women have been using female changing areas and bathrooms for as long as I can remember, are you suggesting trans women, even those who’ve had the full procedure shouldn’t be allowed to use them anymore? Because that would be discriminatory Oliver

To flip this around, transpeople who have not fully transitioned have never been able to access women's refuges nor female-only mental health inpatient facilities. Nor were they until very recently given access to women's prisons (still not universal) or women's sport.

Are you suggesting that people identifying as trans should be granted access to those areas upon self ID without very careful professional scrutiny and examination of the potential risk factors involved?

[DouglasS]

In 5 years time it will be transphobic to say ‘give birth’ or ‘labour’ or ‘pregnant’

Probably genetics will be a controversial subject also because it will upset peoples choices.


People obviously have an issue with facts and science...

[DouglasS]

1305851214756753411?s=20

Looks like its affecting her sales.....

I’m gonna buy it just to show support and then give it away at Christmas :clap1:

[Liam-]

I'm a fair bit older than you Liam and I also remember this even further back, it was never an issue and really still isn't! But what do you think has caused the issue now?

The rampant right wing onslaught against transpeople, similar to that against gay people in the 70’s and 80’s has most definitely played a part imo

[Niamh.]

The rampant right wing onslaught against transpeople, similar to that against gay people in the 70’s and 80’s has most definitely played a part imo

I'm not right wing, have always been very much left leaning in fact. You don't think it was to do with Self IDing laws being proposed or transwomen entering women's sports (with a massively clear advantage thanks to their male biology) or transwomen (some only deciding they were trans once they were going to prison) being sent to women's prisons or the push to put younger children on puberty blockers?

[Liam-]

To flip this around, transpeople who have not fully transitioned have never been able to access women's refuges nor female-only mental health inpatient facilities. Nor were they until very recently given access to women's prisons (still not universal) or women's sport.

Are you suggesting that people identifying as trans should be granted access to those areas upon self ID without very careful professional scrutiny and examination of the potential risk factors involved?

How many examples are there of that actually happening though, like yes, that person played a system, but using instances like that as an excuse to systematically change the way transpeople lead their lives is the wrong way to go imo.

And in the same breath, people like JK also have an issue with doctors giving people thinks like hormones and puberty blockers and whatnot as if they’re given out like candy on Halloween, when in reality it’s bloody hard to get to that point, so people end up having to self-Id in the end, it’s all a vicious circle of ignorance, whether it be wilful or just through plain naivety.

[DouglasS]

At the end of the day JK is a business woman, now that her new book is coming out, it patently obvious to me that she’s done everything she’s done and said over the past few months, to garner whatever interest she could to further her sales, it’s the same as Piers Morgan stoking they ‘woke culture war’ to promote his new book and Lawrence Fox turning into a right wing rent-a-gob to elevate a flagging career, it’s a shame she’s had to go down this route because she’s a decent writer.

I don’t think this is the case at all... doing this to generate sales would not generate sales... her Harry Potter verse and fantastic beast books sell every year in extreme amounts, as do her constant showing of the movies. All the merch for Harry potters and fairs and events. Majority of her fans are 16-30... this will only damage sales and her income... what you are saying isn’t making sense.

You’re also saying she has a flagging career, well if she does everyone does? She’s one of the richest women on the planet... and the best selling author of the last 50 years.. calling her Career flagging would be similar to saying similar that the Beatles flopped

I’m not sure you understand business fully if you think writing in this character and her outspoken views will benefit her? Or That this was pre meditated.

She is not an author that needs attention she is literally the most successful author of the last 50 years - she doesn’t need money - her books are still selling daily In thousands - she has over 10 movies across her books... and tours... and theme parks.. worlds.. across all continents. Like I said her career is not flagging - I mean you must be extremely ambitious if you think she is flagging.. are you secretly Bill Gates?

[Niamh.]

How many examples are there of that actually happening though, like yes, that person played a system, but using instances like that as an excuse to systematically change the way transpeople lead their lives is the wrong way to go imo.

And in the same breath, people like JK also have an issue with doctors giving people thinks like hormones and puberty blockers and whatnot as if they’re given out like candy on Halloween, when in reality it’s bloody hard to get to that point, so people end up having to self-Id in the end, it’s all a vicious circle of ignorance, whether it be wilful or just through plain naivety.

There are a lot of examples in women's sport tbf and to allow this loophole exist will decimate women's sports, is that right or fair?

[Swan]

There are a lot of examples in women's sport tbf and to allow this loophole exist will decimate women's sports, is that right or fair?

Fallon Fox being the perfect example.

[Toy Soldier]

How many examples are there of that actually happening though, like yes, that person played a system, but using instances like that as an excuse to systematically change the way transpeople lead their lives is the wrong way to go imo.



And in the same breath, people like JK also have an issue with doctors giving people thinks like hormones and puberty blockers and whatnot as if they’re given out like candy on Halloween, when in reality it’s bloody hard to get to that point, so people end up having to self-Id in the end, it’s all a vicious circle of ignorance, whether it be wilful or just through plain naivety.There aren't examples if it happening because most of these examples still cannot happen because - rightly - trans rights activists have not yet managed to remove the rigid safeguarding policies that are in place.

The point is that there are very vocal groups who ARE trying to have those safeguarding policies altered to be more trans inclusive, with no evidence base, no scrutiny, and seemingly very little concern for how that might affect women and children.

And then more relevantly to the JK Rowling issue; people who point out those actions and express concern about those goals are branded transphobic.

[Niamh.]

Fallon Fox being the perfect example.

Yeah, I'm a big MMA fan, not only unfair there but really dangerous

[Liam-]

I'm not right wing, have always been very much left leaning in fact. You don't think it was to do with Self IDing laws being proposed or transwomen entering women's sports (with a massively clear advantage thanks to their male biology) or transwomen (some only deciding they were trans once they were going to prison) being sent to women's prisons or the push to put younger children on puberty blockers?

I didn’t say you were right wing, but their determination to find a new victim alongside immigrant and poor people lead to a very heavy war on the ‘woke’ trans community, cause it’s not cool to bash the gays anymore.

Those examples are so tiny and far and few between, they’re anomalies, what do you think about Castor Semenya, she is biologically a female, with high naturally high testosterone levels and she’s being made to take medication to reduce it, would you say that was fair? To me she’s being discriminated against for something she can’t help.

[Liam-]

And what about big women that are strong? There are some women out there than can naturally hold their own against any man, should they be disqualified from things just because they’re stronger than an ‘average’ woman?

[Toy Soldier]

There are some women out there than can naturally hold their own against any man

Thats the thing though. No, there are not. There are professional female sportspeople who obviously can hold their own against any man casually playing the sport. There is no physical sport where any female athlete can compete with the top male tier. Those are just the facts. It's been tried and tested. The Williams Sisters had their arses handed to them by low-ranked male professional tennis players and they're significantly stronger than 99.9% of other female players.

[Niamh.]

I didn’t say you were right wing, but their determination to find a new victim alongside immigrant and poor people lead to a very heavy war on the ‘woke’ trans community, cause it’s not cool to bash the gays anymore.

Those examples are so tiny and far and few between, they’re anomalies, what do you think about Castor Semenya, she is biologically a female, with high naturally high testosterone levels and she’s being made to take medication to reduce it, would you say that was fair? To me she’s being discriminated against for something she can’t help.

The examples in Sport are not really that few and far between at all though, there's a lot of examples, in athletics, cycling, MMA, Weightlifting, Cricket and Rugby (off the top of my head)

I think the Castor Semenya case is very unfortunate but i agree with the decision made

[Toy Soldier]

I didn’t say you were right wing, but their determination to find a new victim alongside immigrant and poor people lead to a very heavy war on the ‘woke’ trans community, cause it’s not cool to bash the gays anymore.

The attempt to apply this narrative to JK Rowling is pretty much ludicrous and that's where the entire debate is falling apart for the majority of people and why mainstream support is being rapidly eroded. It's just not reasonable in the slightest to try to paint The Woman Wot Wrote Harry Potter as some sort of secret bigoted immigrant-bashing covert agent of the right... And trying to make it out to be the case makes any other claim of persecution - including the ones that ARE very valid - seem like they might be questionable.

[Liam-]

The attempt to apply this narrative to JK Rowling is pretty much ludicrous and that's where the entire debate is falling apart for the majority of people and why mainstream support is being rapidly eroded. It's just not reasonable in the slightest to try to paint The Woman Wot Wrote Harry Potter as some sort of secret bigoted immigrant-bashing covert agent of the right... And trying to make it out to be the case makes any other claim of persecution - including the ones that ARE very valid - seem like they might be questionable.

I didn’t once claim that was anything to do with JK, unless she’s suddenly a part of the right wing press

[Toy Soldier]

I didn’t once claim that was anything to do with JK, unless she’s suddenly a part of the right wing pressThe whole thread is about JK though, and your explanation for increasing concern is right-wing influence. Unless you're thinking more along the lines that people who have concerns have been duped or had their heads turned by the right wing press? Either way, it seems odd that people who have not had their heads turned whatsoever by any other element of the right wing press have concerns about the current trans rights narrative? Why would that be?

[Liam-]

The whole thread is about JK though, and your explanation for increasing concern is right-wing influence. Unless you're thinking more along the lines that people who have concerns have been duped or had their heads turned by the right wing press? Either way, it seems odd that people who have not had their heads turned whatsoever by any other element of the right wing press have concerns about the current trans rights narrative? Why would that be?

I think the right wing press have done a very good job of highlighting minimal instances of people using the ‘trans’ umbrella and doing bad things, in order to concoct a ‘war’ that doesn’t really need to be fought, it’s how they scare the nationalists with immigrants, I think it’s how they’re scaring women into fighting their battles for them, but of course, that’s just my opinion

[Oliver_W]

Trans women have been using female changing areas and bathrooms for as long as I can remember, are you suggesting trans women, even those who’ve had the full procedure shouldn’t be allowed to use them anymore? Because that would be discriminatory Oliver

And suggesting males can use female spaces is discrimination against women, or at least it goes against their rights to single-sex spaces. When it comes down to it, trans rights and womens rights aren't 100% compatible.

[Toy Soldier]

I think the right wing press have done a very good job of highlighting minimal instances of people using the ‘trans’ umbrella and doing bad things, in order to concoct a ‘war’ that doesn’t really need to be fought, it’s how they scare the nationalists with immigrants, I think it’s how they’re scaring women into fighting their battles for them, but of course, that’s just my opinionI disagree but mainly because I've seen countless female academics and health professionals being declared TERF over this, and I find it very dubious that groups of highly intelligent people have been duped by the press and need to be corrected by some overtly aggressive people citing little but lived experience.

[Liam-]

And suggesting males can use female spaces is discrimination against women, or at least it goes against their rights to single-sex spaces. When it comes down to it, trans rights and womens rights aren't 100% compatible.

So that’s a yes to discriminating against even the post-op trans women then

[Josy]

I think one of the key issues here is that for there to be a discussion at all there needs to be acknowledgement that many women (and others in support) have concerns, and that having concerns is not inherently transphobic. And there needs to be acknowledgement that transpeople obviously have concerns about their own rights too. And acceptance that those concerns have areas where they collide in complicated ways.

There is no discussion to be had with anyone who can't accept those basic premises to be honest, on either side.Pretty much perfect post imo

[Oliver_W]

So that’s a yes to discriminating against even the post-op trans women then

I don't even think that's the right word - maintaining the rights of half the population, versus bending them for less than 1%? Hard to think of that as discrimination tbh :shrug:

[Liam-]

I don't even think that's the right word - maintaining the rights of half the population, versus bending them for less than 1%? Hard to think of that as discrimination tbh :shrug:

Except it’s not ‘bending’ because trans women are already allowed to use those public spaces, so taking those rights away and banning them from doing so because of their identity, would most definitely be discriminatory

[Oliver_W]

Except it’s not ‘bending’ because trans women are already allowed to use those public spaces, so taking those rights away and banning them from doing so because of their identity, would most definitely be discriminatory

Sure they are currently allowed, but that still takes away women's rights to a single sex space. Gender identity isn't a protected characteristic, and sex is. Women's spaces is a sex-based right.

[Marsh.]

The Jk Rowling uproar is getting ridiculous now, the killer in the story wore a wig and thats her being transphobic? Get a grip

This.

[Marsh.]

Declining to actually argue her points by dismissing them as not her real opinions, just inventions to promote a book is the most ridiculous take on this I've read.

[Marsh.]

Also, from what I've read of this book there is no "trans villain" it's literally a serial killer using disguises to fool people. A long standing crime fiction trope.

[Ammi]

I liked Harry Potter, but I will not be having any more to do with it, since the money would go to her.

...:hug:..