[BBXX]

Originally Posted by vesavius

'immutable characteristics' covers a lot of ground, I guess.

It does, but the discussion was about homosexuality and you made the differentiation between us, implying we were not the same.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

It does, but the discussion was about homosexuality and you made the differentiation between us, implying we were not the same.

Ahh, maybe it was because I was vague about it that it easy to assume. I don't blame you.

I prefer being that when in these discussions because it usually stops people trying to pigeonhole me or assume my worldviews based on where I like to rub my junk.

[Abra]

Originally Posted by vesavius

Yes, this started seeping into the mainstream at least 20 years ago, I agree.

What did? People being held accountable for being racist and homophobic? Is it your opinion that Emily should have been allowed to call her black housemates the N word?

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Abra

What did? People being held accountable for being racist and homophobic? Is it your opinion that Emily should have been allowed to call her black housemates the N word?

Emily was unfairly removed, yes. There was no malice or hate in her use of it. Plus, she invented Indie and we should all respect that.

We probably have very different ideas of what 'properly accountable' for using words looks like.

But I mean the ideological push of the Frankfurt School in general... What grew to be understood these days as 'woke'.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by vesavius

Emily was unfairly removed, yes. There was no malice or hate in her use of it. Plus, she invented Indie and we should all respect that.

We probably have very different ideas of what 'properly accountable' for using words looks like.

But I mean the ideological push of the Frankfurt School in general... What grew to be understood these days as 'woke'.

That was disastrous .. Emily looked as though she was gonna be a brilliant housemate

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Zizu

That was disastrous .. Emily looked as though she was gonna be a brilliant housemate

She could been one of the greats!

[Abra]

Originally Posted by vesavius

Emily was unfairly removed, yes. There was no malice or hate in her use of it. Plus, she invented Indie and we should all respect that.

We probably have very different ideas of what 'properly accountable' for using words looks like.

But I mean the ideological push of the Frankfurt School in general... What grew to be understood these days as 'woke'.

Sorry but the fact that you think a white girl is entitled to go around calling black people the N word without consequence just nullifies your entire argument for me. That's a pretty extreme view to hold that you are masking as some kind of appreciation for free speech. The word "woke" has become so overused by the right at this point that it's essentially meaningless.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Abra

Sorry but the fact that you think a white girl is entitled to go around calling black people the N word without consequence just nullifies your entire argument for me. That's a pretty extreme view to hold that you are masking as some kind of appreciation for free speech. The word "woke" has become so overused by the right at this point that it's essentially meaningless.

lol it's not 'extreme'... stop being so dramatic

I just think that intention and context matters in these things, and Emily was clearly not being racist. Charley didn't even care about it until Shabna convinced her that she should. A warning would have been fine.

If this position is 'extreme' to you then I am not sure what to say

I agree that 'woke' is overused and often misused, but I understand what it means and use it correctly, if sparingly.

[Abra]

Originally Posted by vesavius

lol it's not 'extreme'... stop being so dramatic

I just think that intention and context matters in these things, and Emily was clearly not being racist. Charley didn't even care about it until Shabna convinced her that she should. A warning would have been fine.

If this position is 'extreme' to you then I am not sure what to say

I agree that 'woke' is overused and often misused, but I understand what it means and use it correctly, if sparingly.

I'm sorry to be the one to inform you, but supporting a white person's right to call a black person the N word is most certainly an extreme racist view, there's no two ways around it. I would also say that's pretty universally acknowledged as a textbook example of racism. There's no context in which a white person calling a black person that word isn't racist, and no amount of mental gymnastics around "intention" will change that. She knew the word she was using and she knew that she was calling a black person that word, she said it with the intention she meant it.

"Emily was clearly not being racist" I have to laugh

[Glenn.]

Are people still trying to defend racism

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Abra

I'm sorry to be the one to inform you, but supporting a white person's right to call a black person the N word is most certainly an extreme racist view, there's no two ways around it. I would also say that's pretty universally acknowledged as a textbook example of racism. There's no context in which a white person calling a black person that word isn't racist, and no amount of mental gymnastics around "intention" will change that. She knew the word she was using and she knew that she was calling a black person that word, she said it with the intention she meant it.

"Emily was clearly not being racist" I have to laugh

Luckily I care not even a little for your (bad) take on that or your judgement of me for it

You don't get to define or dictate how others think. Sorry.

If you want to see racism everywhere and tilt at windmills, knock yourself out. I don't mind.

[Glenn.]

I’d say you’ve defined your view on it quite clearly and I’m sorry to tell you, it’s racist.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Glenn.

I’d say you’ve defined your view on it quite clearly and I’m sorry to tell you, it’s racist.

Well, there's a credible viewpoint I can trust

[Glenn.]

I would. I’m clearly not the only one who thinks it.

[Conzors]

I wouldn’t say homophobic but definitely ignorant

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Glenn.

I would. I’m clearly not the only one who thinks it.

Two people having a bad take doesn't make it a good take.

You have no power here

Anyhow, done with you. Moving on. Have a great night Glenn!

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by vesavius

Remember 'You Decide'?

Short of actual physical violence that should always be the case, not removing HMs because 'members of the public may be offended'. Why bother voting when all you have on offer is an ideologically approved shortlist of who the production team and RedditX deems appropriate for mass consumption?

Vote between Daley, Jack, and Chris! Wo0o0o0h, interesting.

Someone is always offended. About everything. Every single interest group has an axe to grind. It never ends. You can't run an actually decent version of BB like that.

I watch BB for human behaviour, it's highs and lows, not for some enactment of a sanitised vision of some post Stalinist dystopia where everyone is grimace smiling and afraid to say anything while policing the HM next to them in case THEY say something that is worth social credit points.

Chris! Quickly say "you can't use that word" multiple times so that Reddit sees you and thinks you are one of them!"

Unless they are physically assaulting someone in any sense, leave them in and let the public decide.

I agree with this tbh.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I think intention is the biggest decider between what makes something a homophobic joke and what makes someone a homophobe, and I was referring to a hypothetical scenario of the second one.

I do agree with your option of exposing bad ideas and actions to sunlight, but not on the principle they could potentially be rewarded off the back of those bad ideas. More to the point, in the example I gave, why would anyone want to watch someone be and out and out homophobe. Grim.

I really am not an authoritarian, though I can understand that some on the extreme left do make it seem like liberals are that way inclined. Aside from being for small government, I am absolutely for free speech: people should be free to say whatever they feel and think. However, I think just because you're free to say something, it doesn't mean you're free to say something without consequence, rebuttal or objection and that is different in different settings. If you expose your free speech in a workplace and say that gays are immoral, like someone said earlier on this site, then don't cry about free speech when you get the sack.

Question: Why does your definition of authoritarian seem to start and end at people objecting to other people say hateful ****?

Then you're not for freedom of speech then imo.

The only time freedom of speech should go out the window is if the person is either threatening or harassing someone, everything else should be allowed imo.

Admittedly Mickey would be removed under my metric for threatening both Jojo and Chris in different scenarios.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Abra

I'm sorry to be the one to inform you, but supporting a white person's right to call a black person the N word is most certainly an extreme racist view, there's no two ways around it. I would also say that's pretty universally acknowledged as a textbook example of racism. There's no context in which a white person calling a black person that word isn't racist, and no amount of mental gymnastics around "intention" will change that. She knew the word she was using and she knew that she was calling a black person that word, she said it with the intention she meant it.

"Emily was clearly not being racist" I have to laugh

But weren't the public going to vote Emily out that week anyway?

Why didn't BB just let the public finish the job that they'd already started?

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Then you're not for freedom of speech then imo.

That’s fine for you to think, but your definition of freedom of speech isn’t THE definition of freedom of speech which absolutely puts restrictions on certain scenarios such as hate speech, which will come with consequences if broken.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by BBXX

That’s fine for you to think, but your definition of freedom of speech isn’t THE definition of freedom of speech which absolutely puts restrictions on certain scenarios such as hate speech, which will come with consequences if broken.

Oh I know that the laws in this country will arrest/punish people for being dickheads, but imo being a dickhead in and of itself shouldn't see people removed off a Show like BB imo, and that's just away from anything Mickey's done because tbf he was pushing his luck.

Countries around the world claim that they need more Prison space, yet the law enforcement will arrest people for offensive comments, thus making even less Prison space.

I do respect you as a member so I do apologize if my previous post came across a bit OTT or rude, I just don't like people's speech being censored.

Because with someone like Mickey for example, I knew as soon as he said that he wanted to "tie Jojo up" that he was extremely unlikely to be someone that would be my favourite on Big Brother.

And that imo is the beauty of Big Brother, and the Internet nowadays as people will be more honest about their opinions, and you know if you like the person or not afterwards.

Where as tbf with this CBB lot some of them might have fantastic personalities irl, but they're being inhibited by production and a chunk of the public because their lives could be potentially ruined.

And in my view it's a slippery slope, because yes you're okay with censoring speech when it comes to people's prejudices, but it never stops there, history has taught us that.

I'm sorry for the long rant btw, freedom of speech is something that I am passionate about, as I didn't like it when Carol Vorderman got fired from the BBC over tweets either.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Oh I know that the laws in this country will arrest/punish people for being dickheads, but imo being a dickhead in and of itself shouldn't see people removed off a Show like BB imo, and that's just away from anything Mickey's done because tbf he was pushing his luck.

Countries around the world claim that they need more Prison space, yet the law enforcement will arrest people for offensive comments, thus making even less Prison space.

-

And in my view it's a slippery slope, because yes you're okay with censoring speech when it comes to people's prejudices, but it never stops there, history has taught us that.

I'm sorry for the long rant btw, freedom of speech is something that I am passionate about, as I didn't like it when Carol Vorderman got fired from the BBC over tweets either.

You can diminish hate speech to "being a dickhead" if you wish, but that doesn't diminish the actions words do have. People do, will and always have acted upon the words of people, take a look at history. The people spreading negative messages about women are usually not actually assaulting them themselves physically, but their words illicit a response in incels to so do. The influential people spreading anti-LGBT rhetoric aren't beating up a gay couple who are just enjoying a drink outside a pub, but they inspire others to do so, not through orders, but simply by helping stir the pot of simmering homophobia already present.

You simply cannot put your head in the sand and act like the effect of words end at the moment they leave the tongue, that they're "just words" and "offence is taken and not given". It's not about that. It's about the impact the words have on others who want a reason to think it's justifiable to punch a gay man in the face.

LGBT people are four times more likely to be a victim of assault than straight people and compared to five years ago there is a 56% increase in hate crime against LGBT people.

But yeah, the real issue is the slippery slope that starts with telling people if they say discriminatory words they will be reprImanded.

(Suffice to say, none of this is now referring to what Mickey said by any stretch, the conversation has moved far beyond Mickey onto a much larger subject at hand)

[vesavius]

'Hate speech' is such a nebulous non defined term... It just means whatever the person wielding it wants it to mean.

Such a dangerous weapon in the hands of the more deranged. Not saying that's you at all BBX, but for every moderate that would use it wisely there are 100 that would use malicously it to suppress control and bludgeon others with that simply disagree with them.

That aside, the people beating up gay people at this point in the UK's history are not doing it because they watched a spicey episode of CBB.

Originally Posted by BBXX

....and compared to five years ago there is a 56% increase in hate crime against LGBT people.

I don't think the Left are at all ready yet to talk about why that actually is.

[Jessica.]

Anyway everyone who said that Danny and Jojo forgave him so he must be a nice person are wrong because Danny was so relieved when he left and Jojo didn't pine over him either.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

Anyway everyone who said that Danny and Jojo forgave him so he must be a nice person are wrong

On my part, that's a relief, because I personally never said that. I have said that JoJo has made her peace with mickey and if she has then I am happy to move on, but that's not the same thing.

I didn't actually see anyone else say that either, but if you say you did, ok.