[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

The "trans men (biological women) shouldn't use male toilets" conundrum is a major, major stumbling block I cannot even fathom what the solution there is going to be. Literally any bloke could walk into a women's changing room claiming that they are a trans man and I can't see how anyone could prove one way or the other without peeking their genitals.

Being blunt; more often than not, you can tell when a trans woman is trans. People are polite and claim otherwise but most are not entirely "passing".

But testosterone therapies have a HUGE effect on biological women and trans men can easily look 100% male, if often on the short side, but we can't go assuming that all short kings are actually biologically female.

I dunno how that's going to be solved.

Honestly I think the simplest safeguarding solution would be to say that biological men can't use women's spaces, but biological women can use men's spaces if they choose to. Trans men should, if they choose to, still use men's toilets.

That would be a nightmare (or basically impossible) to write into any coherent law though.

There is no conundrum, most restaurants, bars etc have a 3rd space or if they can provide a lockable cubicle then there is no issue, honestly this is not the big deal it is made out to be, heard a transwoman on the radio this moring saying people would gather outside ladies toilets to assault transwomen, literal scaremongering AND might I add this lady said she was going to continue to use the ladies facilities, which I dont mind as long as there is common sense involved, I do not want to see an obvious man in a dress in female spaces, this will also make it much clearer for sporting bodies and for quotas on employing women

[Crimson Dynamo]

Community notes

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

Community notes

Just sums up the contempt for female safeguarding, reducing it to be called 'a bathroom bill' I don't understand what is being said here, if they are not out to their colleagues and classmates, how would going into a bathroom they are supposed to use out them .. Not thought that one through

[Quantum Boy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

There is no conundrum, most restaurants, bars etc have a 3rd space or if they can provide a lockable cubicle then there is no issue, honestly this is not the big deal it is made out to be, heard a transwoman on the radio this moring saying people would gather outside ladies toilets to assault transwomen, literal scaremongering AND might I add this lady said she was going to continue to use the ladies facilities, which I dont mind as long as there is common sense involved, I do not want to see an obvious man in a dress in female spaces, this will also make it much clearer for sporting bodies and for quotas on employing women

No, I'm saying how do you stop a predatory male from pretending to be a trans man (biological female) in order to enter women's bathrooms, when it's been legislated that bathroom use is biological sex. I honestly feel like it's part of the equation that's been overlooked with the focus being on predatory men pretending to be trans women to get to women... we do now have an issue where predatory men can pretend to be trans men (people who look like men can claim they were born female) to access women's toilets.

I'm not talking about the people who will voluntarily use the correct spaces I'm talking about the ones who will exploit the ability not to.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Just sums up the contempt for female safeguarding, reducing it to be called 'a bathroom bill' I don't understand what is being said here, if they are not out to their colleagues and classmates, how would going into a bathroom they are supposed to use out them .. Not thought that one through

They are saying if they're living life as a trans woman, and haven't told their colleagues they were born a man, they either now have to use the mans toilet which effectively outs them or break the law and use the women's.

[Quantum Boy]

Originally Posted by BBXX

They are saying if they're living life as a trans woman, and haven't told their colleagues they were born a man, they either now have to use the mans toilet which effectively outs them or break the law and use the women's.

BBXX I genuinely don't mean this in an offensive way, just a realistic/pragmatic/honest way...

Very, very few trans women are actually passing. Often, in polite society, people will pretend it to be the case, but it just isn't. Most individuals who have been through male puberty simply don't convincingly pass as women.

Testosterone has a huge effect on body development which is why the opposite problem I posed above is true - when a biological female has been on testosterone for a few years they will become very masculine and many will convincingly pass as male. It's also why it's very difficult for trans men to detransition (after a few years of T they will ALWAYS look masculine).

There are some obvious biological reasons for this. Male hormones have a huge transformative effect t on the human body in a way that female hormones (or removal of male hormones) does not.

But yeah. Tl;Dr there are going to be very few situations where a trans person is "outed" as trans to their coworkers because of this.

There are definitely plenty of other human moral/ethical concerns but I don't think this is one.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

BBXX I genuinely don't mean this in an offensive way, just a realistic/pragmatic/honest way...

Very, very few trans women are actually passing. Often, in polite society, people will pretend it to be the case, but it just isn't. Most individuals who have been through male puberty simply don't convincingly pass as women.

Testosterone has a huge effect on body development which is why the opposite problem I posed above is true - when a biological female has been on testosterone for a few years they will become very masculine and many will convincingly pass as male. It's also why it's very difficult for trans men to detransition (after a few years of T they will ALWAYS look masculine).

There are some obvious biological reasons for this. Male hormones have a huge transformative effect t on the human body in a way that female hormones (or removal of male hormones) does not.

But yeah. Tl;Dr there are going to be very few situations where a trans person is "outed" as trans to their coworkers because of this.

There are definitely plenty of other human moral/ethical concerns but I don't think this is one.

I was just explaining what they meant by what they said. It will affect trans men more than trans women, but I don't want to get into the debate side of things again as I've said all I really need to without repeating myself, I just wanted to clarify what that person meant that's all.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I was just explaining what they meant by what they said. It will affect trans men more than trans women, but I don't want to get into the debate side of things again as I've said all I really need to without repeating myself, I just wanted to clarify what that person meant that's all.

"but I don't want to get into the debate side of things again "

that seems rather convenient in this section of the site

[Quantum Boy]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

"but I don't want to get into the debate side of things again "

that seems rather convenient in this section of the site

To be fair to BBXX if they have nothing new to add then rereading old ground can be a waste of time, most of us could learn to do that more. Not me but others definitely.

Although...

If we were afraid to retread well worn paths this section would be completely dead.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

To be fair to BBXX if they have nothing new to add then rereading old ground can be a waste of time, most of us could learn to do that more. Not me but others definitely.

Although...

If we were afraid to retread well worn paths this section would be completely dead.

yeah yeah

you hate the site blah blah blah

yet here you are day after day

lol

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

BBXX I genuinely don't mean this in an offensive way, just a realistic/pragmatic/honest way...

Very, very few trans women are actually passing. Often, in polite society, people will pretend it to be the case, but it just isn't. Most individuals who have been through male puberty simply don't convincingly pass as women.

Testosterone has a huge effect on body development which is why the opposite problem I posed above is true - when a biological female has been on testosterone for a few years they will become very masculine and many will convincingly pass as male. It's also why it's very difficult for trans men to detransition (after a few years of T they will ALWAYS look masculine).

There are some obvious biological reasons for this. Male hormones have a huge transformative effect t on the human body in a way that female hormones (or removal of male hormones) does not.

But yeah. Tl;Dr there are going to be very few situations where a trans person is "outed" as trans to their coworkers because of this.

There are definitely plenty of other human moral/ethical concerns but I don't think this is one.

I never knew de-transitioning was a thing, or that it got that far.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Redway

I never knew de-transitioning was a thing, or that it got that far.

Well you can't change sex but you can reverse the cosmetic attempt

Awful business mentally

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

The "trans men (biological women) shouldn't use male toilets" conundrum is a major, major stumbling block I cannot even fathom what the solution there is going to be. Literally any bloke could walk into a women's changing room claiming that they are a trans man and I can't see how anyone could prove one way or the other without peeking their genitals.

Being blunt; more often than not, you can tell when a trans woman is trans. People are polite and claim otherwise but most are not entirely "passing".

But testosterone therapies have a HUGE effect on biological women and trans men can easily look 100% male, if often on the short side, but we can't go assuming that all short kings are actually biologically female.

I dunno how that's going to be solved.

Honestly I think the simplest safeguarding solution would be to say that biological men can't use women's spaces, but biological women can use men's spaces if they choose to. Trans men should, if they choose to, still use men's toilets.

That would be a nightmare (or basically impossible) to write into any coherent law though.

Apart from a third space, the solution seems to be to have spaces for
a) cis women
b) everyone else

[Quantum Boy]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Apart from a third space, the solution seems to be to have spaces for
a) cis women
b) everyone else

I still think the only "clean" solution is self-contained toilets (where the occupant is then irrelevant) there no other solution that isn't going to be, in some cases, a major issue. In the absense of that I do think it "somehow" has to be the case that transitioned (long term hormone replacement) trans men who look clearly male should be using male spaces. I know that creates a disparity between trans men and trans women but it's the only realistic safeguarding option.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Redway

I never knew de-transitioning was a thing, or that it got that far.

It's a thing and they get dropped by doctors as soon as they start questioning. The whole thing is a medical racket.

[BBXX]

Yes detransitioning is a thing but isn’t very common. There are a few different stats around, ranging from a 0.46% detransition rate to an 8% detransition rate. Of those who do detransition most so do temporarily though - due to not financially able to continue with treatment or judgement/pressure from family or friends.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

The "trans men (biological women) shouldn't use male toilets" conundrum is a major, major stumbling block I cannot even fathom what the solution there is going to be. Literally any bloke could walk into a women's changing room claiming that they are a trans man and I can't see how anyone could prove one way or the other without peeking their genitals.

Being blunt; more often than not, you can tell when a trans woman is trans. People are polite and claim otherwise but most are not entirely "passing".

But testosterone therapies have a HUGE effect on biological women and trans men can easily look 100% male, if often on the short side, but we can't go assuming that all short kings are actually biologically female.

I dunno how that's going to be solved.

Honestly I think the simplest safeguarding solution would be to say that biological men can't use women's spaces, but biological women can use men's spaces if they choose to. Trans men should, if they choose to, still use men's toilets.

That would be a nightmare (or basically impossible) to write into any coherent law though.

Being blunt about it, it's really rare to hear about women being sexual predators.

Whilst I'm sure that there are cases of men being sexually violated by women, it is certainly not at a level where there's a cause for concern/debate about Trans Men using the men's bathroom.

That's why I don't think that there's going to be even any attempt to try and change or enforce Trans Men out of men's bathrooms, because biologically speaking they're still female, so they're less likely to commit sex offenses on paper.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

No, I'm saying how do you stop a predatory male from pretending to be a trans man (biological female) in order to enter women's bathrooms, when it's been legislated that bathroom use is biological sex. I honestly feel like it's part of the equation that's been overlooked with the focus being on predatory men pretending to be trans women to get to women... we do now have an issue where predatory men can pretend to be trans men (people who look like men can claim they were born female) to access women's toilets.

I'm not talking about the people who will voluntarily use the correct spaces I'm talking about the ones who will exploit the ability not to.

Good point tbh.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Being blunt about it, it's really rare to hear about women being sexual predators.

Whilst I'm sure that there are cases of men being sexually violated by women, it is certainly not at a level where there's a cause for concern/debate about Trans Men using the men's bathroom.

That's why I don't think that there's going to be even any attempt to try and change or enforce Trans Men out of men's bathrooms, because biologically speaking they're still female, so they're less likely to commit sex offenses on paper.

What about all the female teachers in the UK who've abused young boy pupils? I've seen many a headline about that over the course of my life. It does happen way more than you think but the victims are way less likely to report the woman who violated them.

[Quantum Boy]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Yes detransitioning is a thing but isn’t very common. There are a few different stats around, ranging from a 0.46% detransition rate to an 8% detransition rate. Of those who do detransition most so do temporarily though - due to not financially able to continue with treatment or judgement/pressure from family or friends.

It is worth noting that a lot of these stats refer to detransitiining after beginning actual physical interventions (hormonal treatment and surgery), halting transition or "detransitioning" socially before medical processes have begun is much (much) more common especially amongst adolescent females (trans boys).

Therea little to no evidence that this is due to social pressure and is fairly consistent whether family and peers are supportive or not. Although it's often framed as "pressured" for political reasons.

Anecdotally; my daughter (now 16) half 6 or 7 trans boys in her year group at age 13, and over a dozen more identifying as non-binary. Three years later there are two trans boys and zero non-binary. Most "went back" to original gender at around 14/15.

I think this is ultimately probably a Not-uncommon phase, with it not being very surprising that adolescents might experience some philosophical pondering around concepts of sex and gender in early adolescence, that if adults would just let them figure out without meddling, does happen. The social interference by adults with their own political agendas (from both sides of the political track) is what really muddies the waters. Kids being collateral damage.

[Quantum Boy]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

What about all the female teachers in the UK who've abused young boy pupils? I've seen many a headline about that over the course of my life. It does happen way more than you think but the victims are way less likely to report the woman who violated them.

It does happen but it's waaaaayyy less common than the other way around, even accounting for cases that aren't officially reported. You're potentially over-estimating the percentage of male-abuser cases that are reported. Most of those are, sadly, unreported too - or only reported historically when the woman reaches adulthood (very unlikely to result in charges, or often reported after the abuser has died).

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

Therea little to no evidence that this is due to social pressure and is fairly consistent whether family and peers are supportive or not. Although it's often framed as "pressured" for political reasons.

A survey of 27,000 trans people showed pressure from parents, difficulty of transition and harassment and discrimination at the top 3 reasons for detransition. Followed by Employment issues, Family Pressure, Relationship Pressure.

Only 5% detransitioned due to it not being the right gender identity for them after all. It's estimated that 0.40% of all trans people detransition because they realised they were incorrect/regretful about their transition.

Anecdotally; my daughter (now 16) half 6 or 7 trans boys in her year group at age 13, and over a dozen more identifying as non-binary. Three years later there are two trans boys and zero non-binary. Most "went back" to original gender at around 14/15.

I think this is ultimately probably a Not-uncommon phase, with it not being very surprising that adolescents might experience some philosophical pondering around concepts of sex and gender in early adolescence, that if adults would just let them figure out without meddling, does happen. The social interference by adults with their own political agendas (from both sides of the political track) is what really muddies the waters. Kids being collateral damage.

Yes. Of course, teenagers experiment and then settle and I agree they should just be left to figure it out at their own pace. A teenager identifying as trans at 13 and then not at 16 isn't detransitioning, I meant it the physical, medical sense.

[Crimson Dynamo]

New single-sex rules for NHS in weeks, Wes Streeting says



Wes Streeting warned health managers they must uphold the law after a major
Supreme Court ruling declared trans women are not women.

Current NHS guidelines have to be scrapped because they allow trans people to
be accommodated based on how they dress, their names and their pronouns.

“We'll be issuing guidance in the coming weeks before the summer,”

Mr Streeting also said female staff must have their own spaces to change into
scrubs - in a major victory for campaigning nurses.

Eight nurses from Darlington are taking the NHS to court in October in their
bid to stop a trans colleague using their changing room.

https://www.the-sun.com/news/1411298...for-nhs-weeks/

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

I still think the only "clean" solution is self-contained toilets (where the occupant is then irrelevant) there no other solution that isn't going to be, in some cases, a major issue. In the absense of that I do think it "somehow" has to be the case that transitioned (long term hormone replacement) trans men who look clearly male should be using male spaces. I know that creates a disparity between trans men and trans women but it's the only realistic safeguarding option.

Yeah, I agree, although you men are filthy beggers in public toilets, womens public toilets are usually pretty clean, Gav tells me the mens are usually minging

[Quantum Boy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah, I agree, although you men are filthy beggers in public toilets, womens public toilets are usually pretty clean, Gav tells the mens are usually minging

One of the first places I worked had to have £15000 of work done because when they went to replace the flooring in the men's toilets, they discovered that the floorboards themselves were so soaked in piss that the entire room had to be pulled out and rebuilt from the ground up.

That's how bad some men's toilets are