[Jay.]

well that's nice isn't it

there's a big 10% gap there though, how can you miscount 160,000 isis people

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Jaysus

well that's nice isn't it

there's a big 10% gap there though, how can you miscount 160,000 isis people

That's 160,000,000 actually...

[Jay.]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

That's 160,000,000 actually...

oop thought it said 1.6 million

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

I'm not agreeing with anyone, there are measured statistics on the subject. Supporting ISIS is supporting extremists last time I looked.

Not at all.
There are 32 million Shafi living around the globe. Shafi's are a form of Sunni Muslims who abhor, centralization (something ISIS wants) and could be called extremists against ISIS.

13% of the world's Muslim population are Shia and Shia have been called extremists by the ISIS who are fighting against them. ISIS believes that the Shias are apostates and must die.

There are 7.3 million Bahá'ís around the globe and those in war torn Syria and Iraq consider ISIS to be the infidels of Islam.

And then we have Sufis- Mevlevi- Naqshbandi- Bektashi- Chisti and others which have a lot more in common with Shiism and will therefore fight with the Shia against everything ISIS stands for.

You have to understand that ISIS are not a state representative of Islam before you can understand that a suggestion of 400 million ISIS extremists scattered around the globe have been pulled right out of a magicians hat.

[Northern Monkey]

ISIS might not be the only islamic extremists but that does'nt make the others 'good'.Jabhat al-nusra,Al Qaeda and many 'organisations' in Africa are evil and have many supporters who would mean to do us harm if they got the chance.All these groups have many supporters and followers.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

ISIS might not be the only islamic extremists but that does'nt make the others 'good'.Jabhat al-nusra,Al Qaeda and many 'organisations' in Africa are evil and have many supporters who would mean to do us harm if they got the chance.All these groups have many supporters and followers.

I think Obama and Cameron would disagree provided they are fighting against ISIS.

[bots]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Not at all.
There are 32 million Shafi living around the globe. Shafi's are a form of Sunni Muslims who abhor, centralization (something ISIS wants) and could be called extremists against ISIS.

13% of the world's Muslim population are Shia and Shia have been called extremists by the ISIS who are fighting against them. ISIS believes that the Shias are apostates and must die.

There are 7.3 million Bahá'ís around the globe and those in war torn Syria and Iraq consider ISIS to be the infidels of Islam.

And then we have Sufis- Mevlevi- Naqshbandi- Bektashi- Chisti and others which have a lot more in common with Shiism and will therefore fight with the Shia against everything ISIS stands for.

You have to understand that ISIS are not a state representative of Islam before you can understand that a suggestion of 400 million ISIS extremists scattered around the globe have been pulled right out of a magicians hat.

ISIS is supported by a significant number of muslims across the globe, that is a fact. I don't understand why you would want to fudge the issue or downgrade it.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

ISIS is supported by a significant number of muslims across the globe, that is a fact. I don't understand why you would want to fudge the issue or downgrade it.

Aren't you doing that by oversimplifying Red's argument to suit your own?

[bots]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Aren't you doing that by oversimplifying Red's argument to suit your own?

No

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

No

Looks that way to me, Red's just explained it all pretty well and you've denied it so you can hold on to your own erroneous view that millions of people support Isis when it's not the case.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

you implied i was taking a facist stance

No you implied that by saying 'they', and the fact you are agreeing with the numbers as stated by Britain first.
You say that your view is based on independent research, I've looked but can't find anything else that backs that up.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

ISIS is supported by a significant number of muslims across the globe, that is a fact. I don't understand why you would want to fudge the issue or downgrade it.

Fudging: present or deal with (something) in a vague or inadequate way, especially so as to conceal the truth or mislead.

Trying to explain something rather than sticking my head in the sand and believing all Muslims are potentially evil or that all Muslims potentially support ISIS is not 'fudging' anything. Every one of you have the ability to unravel where ISIS came from, who they are and what they represent but from where I'm sitting, some of you prefer to read and pass around anything that supports your blanket anti Islam argument.

[DemolitionRed]

Imagine sitting a Muslim down and explaining that a Catholic is a Christian but doesn't have the same beliefs as the Church of England and although a Spiritualist is still a Christian, they are mocked and ridiculed by other sects of Christianity. They are all Christians but they all disagree with one another.

What many Sunni Muslims support about ISIS is their "Orthodoxy." Wahhabism is the religion of Saudi Arabia, though not all Saudis are Wahhabi. Saudi Arabia is seen by the Sunnis as the purest Muslim Orthodox state and although many different sects of Muslims go on a pilgrimage to Mecca, the Saudi's merely tolerate them but they don't like them, they don't believe in them and they won't celebrate Hajj with them.

Millions of Muslims who follow Islamic doctrines will not support ISIS unless they convert to Wahhabism but that would be like a Catholic converting to the Spiritual church or a Quaker converting to priesthood, it can happen but its not common.

Fortunately most Sunni have no interest in converting to the Wahhabi doctrine, though some will. Sunni are generally not orthodox in their beliefs and have happily moved into modern times without their religion hindering them. Just as most Catholics now believe contraception is a good idea, some will remain glued to the scriptures saying its evil.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Imagine sitting a Muslim down and explaining that a Catholic is a Christian but doesn't have the same beliefs as the Church of England and although a Spiritualist is still a Christian, they are mocked and ridiculed by other sects of Christianity. They are all Christians but they all disagree with one another.

What many Sunni Muslims support about ISIS is their "Orthodoxy." Wahhabism is the religion of Saudi Arabia, though not all Saudis are Wahhabi. Saudi Arabia is seen by the Sunnis as the purest Muslim Orthodox state and although many different sects of Muslims go on a pilgrimage to Mecca, the Saudi's merely tolerate them but they don't like them, they don't believe in them and they won't celebrate Hajj with them.

Millions of Muslims who follow Islamic doctrines will not support ISIS unless they convert to Wahhabism but that would be like a Catholic converting to the Spiritual church or a Quaker converting to priesthood, it can happen but its not common.

Fortunately most Sunni have no interest in converting to the Wahhabi doctrine, though some will. Sunni are generally not orthodox in their beliefs and have happily moved into modern times without their religion hindering them. Just as most Catholics now believe contraception is a good idea, some will remain glued to the scriptures saying its evil.

Thankyou for that Red, it's important that organisations and individuals remember not to paint all Muslims black.... no pun intended.

[lostalex]

i don't like the way most people seem to be framing the whole thing as muslims against republicans... if you don't like muslims then you must like the republicans, or if you don't like republicans then you must support muslims...

i hate both.

[Santa Goth]

Originally Posted by lostalex

i don't like the way most people seem to be framing the whole thing as muslims against republicans... if you don't like muslims then you must like the republicans, or if you don't like republicans then you must support muslims...

i hate both.

You're preaching to the Choir here Lostalex, I totally agree with you both organisations are a disgrace to me with looneys being responsible for so many crimes in the world.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by lostalex

i don't like the way most people seem to be framing the whole thing as muslims against republicans... if you don't like muslims then you must like the republicans, or if you don't like republicans then you must support muslims...

i hate both.

You hate an entire 1.6 billion people on the basis of their religion? Is that an actual statement that an actual person sat and took the time to type out?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

You hate an entire 1.6 billion people on the basis of their religion? Is that an actual statement that an actual person sat and took the time to type out?

I hate the ideology, yes.

just like i hate racists because i hate their ideology. but i've met some very racist people that i like very much, and i'm sure there are some very muslim people that i would get along with fine, and i'm sure i could like some of them as individuals.

Some of my best friends have been white skinheads, some of my best friends have been black baptist christians. i despise both of their ideologies, the skinheads for being racists, and the black baptists for being homophobic.

I don't see a conflict with me hating an ideology, but liking an individual who has that ideology.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by lostalex

I hate the ideology, yes.

just like i hate racists because i hate their ideology. but i've met some very racist people that i like very much, and i'm sure there are some very muslim people that i would get along with fine, and i'm sure i could like some of them as individuals.

Some of my best friends have been white skinheads, some of my best friends have been black baptist christians. i despise both of their ideologies, the skinheads for being racists, and the black baptists for being homophobic.

I don't see a conflict with me hating an ideology, but liking an individual who has that ideology.

You didn't say you hated the ideology of Islam in that post, you specifically said you hated muslims.

[Northern Monkey]

I do believe alot of people in Middle Eastern countries especially do hold extremist views.However it is not entirely their fault as individuals.They are surrounded by and brought up on these views.If you were to take most of these people away from this enviroment and hang out with them you would find much in common with them and probably have a good laugh.Unfortunatley though this won't happen for the majority of us and them.When these extremist views are left to culminate into an ideology and into the rebelious stage of teenhood and then adulthood and these people live within the confines of this ideology it is often too late.These values are deeply ingrained and very difficult to remove.Even if it is not acted upon these people will live their life with these extreme views and a hatred of any non Muslim.Not because they are intrinsically evil but because of the backwards ideology they had drilled into them.We are all human and in a perfect world we would all live in peace.Unfortunately it is'nt the Jeremy Corbynist perfect world and we are divided by these ideologies.So i do believe a very large proportion of Muslims do hold anti western extreme views.Not because they are inhuman or evil but because of the enviroment they were born into.Some of them are obviously evil but they are the minority who can influence the young,naive and easily lead.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

You didn't say you hated the ideology of Islam in that post, you specifically said you hated muslims.

don't be pedantic, i also said that i hate skinheads and black baptist christians, but i said i like some individuals in those ideologies too. if you can't figure out what i mean, then whatever.

[DemolitionRed]

I think extremism is more a western bred thing, at least regarding potential terrorist attacks on our home turf. Muslim kids that are born here have looked on as the west dropped bombs on Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and now Syria. They have watched the terrorist atrocities in New York and the more recent ones in Paris and although I believe the majority will of looked on in horror and dismay, some, perhaps many have felt a great sense of not belonging. Can you imagine living in a land where the nationals neither trusted or wanted you here? I can't.

I don't think kids here become radicalised because of religion but because it gives them a sense of belonging. The more we ostracise them, the more likely they will radicalise.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I think extremism is more a western bred thing, at least regarding potential terrorist attacks on our home turf. Muslim kids that are born here have looked on as the west dropped bombs on Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and now Syria. They have watched the terrorist atrocities in New York and the more recent ones in Paris and although I believe the majority will of looked on in horror and dismay, some, perhaps many have felt a great sense of not belonging. Can you imagine living in a land where the nationals neither trusted or wanted you here? I can't.

I don't think kids here become radicalised because of religion but because it gives them a sense of belonging. The more we ostracise them, the more likely they will radicalise.

This would imply that most extremists live here in the west.Which i don't think is true due to the very large percentage of muslims who hold these views.

[Scarlett.]

90-100% of statistics are pulled out of ones own arse.

[Santa Goth]

Originally Posted by lostalex

I hate the ideology, yes.

just like i hate racists because i hate their ideology. but i've met some very racist people that i like very much, and i'm sure there are some very muslim people that i would get along with fine, and i'm sure i could like some of them as individuals.

Some of my best friends have been white skinheads, some of my best friends have been black baptist christians. i despise both of their ideologies, the skinheads for being racists, and the black baptists for being homophobic.

I don't see a conflict with me hating an ideology, but liking an individual who has that ideology.

I agree with this, I've had Muslim friends in the past, but I hate their ideology.