[Quantum Bauble]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Israel are going after the tunnel network under gaza which all leads up to the Israel border. Thats where all the terrorists hang out too. Thats where the fighting will happen

If they're going to do that, tactically, they should simply collapse them. Or gas them since they seem to have thrown international law out the window at this point & seemingly no one cares.

If they go into the tunnels Israeli forces will be in trouble - there's a reason Vietnam was an absolute disaster for the US... these tunnels could easily be a repeat of the jungles of Vietnam. Unusual environment and home team advantage... Hamas has been using those tunnels for a long time.

[Nicky91]

this is exactly why i said i don't pick either side



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...inian_conflict

also this has been ongoing since

14 May 1948 – present

[Quantum Bauble]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

this is exactly why i said i don't pick either side



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...inian_conflict

also this has been ongoing since

It's been ongoing for most of written history tbh.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

i suggest just the first few minutes may help you..

If anyone hasn't seen this I would urge you to spend the 15 minutes it will take. I particularly like her explanation of the racism of the left. Thank you, LT, for posting it.

Not the Hamas apologists, don't you bother watching it in case you learn something. You all stick to your guns, no pun intended.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

this is exactly why i said i don't pick either side



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...inian_conflict

also this has been ongoing since

Your ignorance is staggering.

[arista]

USA Defence Secretary Austin
has now arrived in Israel.

CNN HD USA on UK TV

[arista]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

I'm definitely going to avoid central London until the war is going on.

Tomorrow Saturday
The Palestine March starts at Portland Place
at the BBC.

https://palestinecampaign.org/events...end-apartheid/

[Quantum Bauble]

Originally Posted by Livia

If anyone hasn't seen this I would urge you to spend the 15 minutes it will take. I particularly like her explanation of the racism of the left. Thank you, LT, for posting it.

Not the Hamas apologists, don't you bother watching it in case you learn something. You all stick to your guns, no pun intended.

I think most people who know their history know the full history laid out here, but it's like trying to justify a group of ehtnically ancient celtic Britons being handed a chunk of England and then expanding outwards to claim most of Britain based on the idea that "they were here first". Or to use a more obvious example, booting everyone who doesn't have verified Native American blood out of the US. It's factually accurate that these populations were "there first" but when it comes down to it, it means nothing; pretty much every country in the world has changed hands multiple times. It doesn't justify the arbitrary division of Palestine by Britain post-WW2, and it doesn't justify the continued "push outwards" and various occupations by Israel since.

I'm not a Hamas apologist as I think I've made abundantly clear throughout this thread; nothing justifies the horrors of terrorism (especially as it doesn't and won't work, it will inevitably make things even far worse for the civilians in the area) and nothing justifies careless targetting of civilian areas in response.

But it is important for the historical context to be accurate and unbiased. The way it's outlined here just isn't... for the reasons I've outlined above. "We were there first hundreds and hundreds of years back" doesn't mean anything on any other piece of land... and it likewise means nothing here.

[Christmas Dynamo]

[arista]

EU funds Metal Waters Pipes
Evil Hamas dig them up , cut them
make deadly missiles

[Quantum Bauble]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

British MP's have knowingly weaponised thicko-tribalism for their political benefit for the better part of a decade at this point, they don't get to turn round now and say "C'mon guys, don't be SoMed-led tribalistic morons...".

This environment was created deliberately. But it's not one with an on-and-off switch .

[Stu]

Renowned anti-semites Medicine Sans Frontier at it again.

Everybody just shut up and let Israel do what they want, jeez, what's so hard to understand?

[arista]

[The EU spent $100 million of taxpayer’s money
on 30 miles of water pipes in Gaza and Palestine,
steel pipes that have been dug up by Hamas
and used to make rockets.
So much for Hamas caring about secure water supplies for Gazans…]


https://order-order.com/2023/10/13/h...-into-rockets/

[Christmas Dynamo]

Originally Posted by arista

[The EU spent $100 million of taxpayer’s money
on 30 miles of water pipes in Gaza and Palestine,
steel pipes that have been dug up by Hamas
and used to make rockets.
So much for Hamas caring about secure water supplies for Gazans…]


https://order-order.com/2023/10/13/h...-into-rockets/

They even posted a helpful video showing how its done

[arista]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

They even posted a helpful video showing how its done

Yes
Posted on post 635

[jet]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Again, let me repeat. Everything Hamas have done over the last few days, has been inflicted on the Palestinian people for decades. That's a verifiable fact. you don't have to take my word for it, you can check it out yourself.

Hamas are still the organisation/terrorist group that have provided any aid to the people, as they've been left to rot by the rest of the world.

The support is for the Palestinian people, not Hamas, but we have to look honestly at why Hamas has any footing there.

I could show you BBQed babies being celebrated by Zionists from a few years ago, who are also now attacking Israeli non-Zionist jews and Christians, but it's vulgar and isn't a competition. Israel is the oppressor and aggressor. Argue against that, not the outrage of the last few days.

I have, now and in the past, and it is no way comparable to the Saturday atrocities carried out by Hamas. If you can show a comparable day of evil inflicted on innocent Palestinians, then let us see it.
You act as if, over those decades, Hamas have been innocent of any atrocities themselves. There have been atrocities on both sides over those years, but the Israeli forces are in no way as brutal as to who they kill as the evil, monstrous Hamas. That's a verifiable fact. You don't have to take my word for it, you can check it out yourself.
Hamas had their headquarters under a hospital ffs, they callously place their missiles of destruction behind apartment blocks full of innocent civilians, they use their own people as human shields. THAT is how they look after their own? Israel is currently advising innocent Palestinians to escape, Hamas are telling them to stay; they WANT them to be slaughtered, can you guess why?
Pumping bullets into babies lying in their cots isn’t a justifiable way of fighting oppression or coming to any kind of compromise. Hamas don’t want compromise, they want the obliteration of all Jews.
Hamas is telling you, loud and clear, that they are purely genocidal. Believe them.

[arista]

22-year-old Lady
backing Hamas,
was arrested under Terrorism Act on Sunday
Hove Clock Tower
East Sussex

[Santa's NaughtiNess]

Originally Posted by arista

22-year-old Lady
backing Hamas,
was arrested under Terrorism Act on Sunday
Hove Clock Tower
East Sussex

This is only the beginning. Hamas backers are already here in the UK.

[Liam-]

The UN need to look very hard at countries that are willingly supplying Israel with money or weapons to continue committing their war crimes upon the Palestinian people

[Santa's NaughtiNess]

Anyone who openly backs Hamas should be arrested.
I also have sympathy for the Palestinians, but hamas are terrorists and I'll never support it.

[Zizu]

So why are Israel still going to bomb Gaza tomorrow if the Hamas have fled the area / country ??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[arista]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

This is only the beginning. Hamas backers are already here in the UK.

Yes they are.
Good, the 22 -year old lady Hamas backer
was arrested under the Terrorism Act.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-67100648

[Liam-]

I’m sure the ‘government are criminalising speech and thoughts’ crew are gonna be disturbed by that

[arista]

Hamas Military has stated
13 Hostages were killed
by Israeli Missiles.


SkyNewsHD Live

[Quantum Bauble]

Originally Posted by jet

I have, now and in the past, and it is no way comparable to the Saturday atrocities carried out by Hamas. If you can show a comparable day of evil inflicted on innocent Palestinians, then let us see it.
You act as if, over those decades, Hamas have been innocent of any atrocities themselves. There have been atrocities on both sides over those years, but the Israeli forces are in no way as brutal as to who they kill as the evil, monstrous Hamas. That's a verifiable fact. You don't have to take my word for it, you can check it out yourself.
Hamas had their headquarters under a hospital ffs, they callously place their missiles of destruction behind apartment blocks full of innocent civilians, they use their own people as human shields. THAT is how they look after their own? Israel is currently advising innocent Palestinians to escape, Hamas are telling them to stay; they WANT them to be slaughtered, can you guess why?
Pumping bullets into babies lying in their cots isn’t a justifiable way of fighting oppression or coming to any kind of compromise. Hamas don’t want compromise, they want the obliteration of all Jews.
Hamas is telling you, loud and clear, that they are purely genocidal. Believe them.

To be fair a lot of this thinking is purely because of (for terrible lack of another word) the aesthetics. The visceral and brutal imagery, the clear intent behind it is barbaric. However if you take that away... a child killed in their own bed by an airstrike when someone ten miles away pushes a button is just as dead as a child killed with a knife.

That's not to say that either act is justified - both are utterly unthinkable ways for a child to die - but if we're "keeping score" and keeping who is ultimately "to blame" politically out of it, there are far more dead Palestinian babies than dead Israeli babies. Far, far more. And it is grim (understandable psychologically and politically, but grim) that we seem to care more about one situation than the other.

Again this is not about justification - one child dead because of bull**** global politics is one child too many but there really does need to be some understanding of the scale of destruction now and over the years in Gaza & The West Bank.

It really brings Iraq to mind TBH. We think of the 3000 deaths in the Twin Towers as a terrorist atrocity (which, of course, it is) but we think of the civilian deaths in Iraq - estimated at anywhere between 200,000 and half a million - and shrug them off as acceptable collateral damage.

Again I can only reiterate that in this conflict yes there are "two sides" but those sides are the horrific global-political tides that lead to situations like this in the wrong, and ANY innocent civilian from any country who is tragically caught in the crossfire. There just is no Good Guy. Terrorism is not good Zionism is not good. There are no heroes here. Just a tragic, tragic humanitarian disaster.