[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Of course it is silly, you're comparing being denied service because of an egg to being denied service because of a person's sexuality, it's silly to think that people should accept homophobia like you'd accept a bakery not dealing with eggs.

Its not silly its the same principal, they haven't advertised themselves as specialist bakers so therefore they should technically sell me whatever cake I want as that seems to be the argument here.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Wrong

the bakers claim as follows
he bakers said their refusal to bake for the couple was prompted by religious beliefs. Nothing to do with their sexuality. One communities rights are being held up as more deserving than another in this instance

That was the bakers stance in order to try and get off, but what was found by law to be the case, was...

It is about a business’s refusal to serve someone because of their sexual orientation. Under Oregon law, that is illegal

It's not ok to discriminate against people and blame your religion, and that's not infringing on the religious persons rights. They still have the right to believe whatever they want, what they don't have the right to do is actively discriminate against people.

One communities rights are being held up as more deserving than another in this instance

The comparison being made here isn't valid, religious peoples right to discriminate is not equal to a gay persons right to shop without fear of being refused service on the basis of their sexuality (just as a religious person shouldn't be refused service in a shop based on them being religious). They aren't having their right to religious belief being taken away from them... they seem to believe that their religion carries with it a right to discriminate... it doesn't.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Its not silly its the same principal, they haven't advertised themselves as specialist bakers so therefore they should technically sell me whatever cake I want as that seems to be the argument here.

It's different because in your case, you wanted a specific ingredient and that ingredient was refused. They didn't refuse to serve you because of who you are. There's similarities in that religion comes into both scenarios but the principle is very different.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Wrong

the bakers claim as follows
he bakers said their refusal to bake for the couple was prompted by religious beliefs. Nothing to do with their sexuality. One communities rights are being held up as more deserving than another in this instance

Oh come on, that one's a stretch. Yes it's their religious beliefs, but it's their religious beliefs REGARDING sexually. You can't say it has nothing to do with sexuality ... What a bizarre statement Cherie.

Though to reiterate I don't think this should be a legal issue. I do think they deserve to go out of business for their prejudice but I'd prefer it to be the old fashioned way; through poor word of mouth and being boycotted for being homophobic, rather than the courts getting involved.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Oh come on, that one's a stretch. Yes it's their religious beliefs, but it's their religious beliefs REGARDING sexually. You can't say it has nothing to do with sexuality ... What a bizarre statement Cherie.

Though to reiterate I don't think this should be a legal issue. I do think they deserve to go out of business for their prejudice but I'd prefer it to be the old fashioned way; through poor word of mouth and being boycotted for being homophobic, rather than the courts getting involved.

I worry though that a lot of people actually wouldn't be bothered enough for bad word of mouth to have any kind of impact on their business... if this hadn't gone through the courts would many people even have heard about it? Sure there might have been a facebook post that picked up some traction or something but I doubt there'd have been any lasting impact, in fact it would probably have drawn a lot of people to them (judging by their 'go fund me'). In an ideal world I'd agree but surely one of the reasons we have courts is to stop discrimination because being left to themselves, people like this and certain communities would just perpetuate it and it would get worse, not better, on it's own?

[arista]

I assume Now Trump
is in power
some bakers will
stick to Man and Women Married cakes
ONLY again.

If you are Gay
go to another bakers - there are loads of them.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I worry though that a lot of people actually wouldn't be bothered enough for bad word of mouth to have any kind of impact on their business... if this hadn't gone through the courts would many people even have heard about it? Sure there might have been a facebook post that picked up some traction or something but I doubt there'd have been any lasting impact, in fact it would probably have drawn a lot of people to them (judging by their 'go fund me'). In an ideal world I'd agree but surely one of the reasons we have courts is to stop discrimination because being left to themselves, people like this and certain communities would just perpetuate it and it would get worse, not better, on it's own?

Perhaps true but then I start to have trouble with the idea of people not being authentic by obligation. I want to know where my money is going, I want to know what sort of people I am supporting by giving them my custom... I don't like the idea that I am happily handing over money to people with repulsive views, unknowingly, because they have to bury those views by law. Basically I would rather people did feel confident in sharing their unsavoury views if only to simplify the process of knowing who to avoid.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

Brexit is gonna make us all billionaires any second now, dont you worry.

Staying in Europe would be the answer to all our problems - allegedly. Or the cause of many! Plodding on, asking no questions and playing it safe rarely achieve any significant change.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Oh come on, that one's a stretch. Yes it's their religious beliefs, but it's their religious beliefs REGARDING sexually. You can't say it has nothing to do with sexuality ... What a bizarre statement Cherie.

Though to reiterate I don't think this should be a legal issue. I do think they deserve to go out of business for their prejudice but I'd prefer it to be the old fashioned way; through poor word of mouth and being boycotted for being homophobic, rather than the courts getting involved.

Why is it stretch to to believe they follow the teachings of the bible, we have no problem with other faiths following their faiths to the letter but when it comes to Christian beliefs it's 'nah mate, thems homophobic innit". rather than accepting they might actually want to follow their bible

[VanessaFeltz.]

Originally Posted by arista

I assume Now Trump
is in power
some bakers will
stick to Man and Women Married cakes
ONLY again.

If you are Gay
go to another bakers - there are loads of them.

When will people understand this is more than just cakes..............

This is about someone telling your face that they wont serve you because you are gay. There is no ifs and buts, these people are basically telling your face that you are not worthy of getting serviced based off something you cant control and a part of you.

Everyone have beliefs. It is not just about religion, some people think homosexuality is wrong, some people think religion is **** and religious people are lunatic. Everyone has an opinion on everything. That doesnt mean you have a right to voice EVERYTHING to peoples faces. For example when i found out majority of my classmates were wearing hijab i was very annoyed and i judged them. Did i ever make them uncomfortable by discriminating them or sprouding hateful words at their faces? No and i gave them equal chances to meet and get to know and couple of them turned out to be very liberal, lovely and smart people and we have become good friends.

When that hideous ugly ****** Melissa told their faces that they wont be serving them because they are a homosexual couple when they were SO happy that they were having one of the happiest days of their lives after living through discrimination and hate starting from their CHILDHOOD when they did nothing wrong. Imagine the feeling they had.. everyone lives through discrimination and hatred would feel ****ing awful after seeing this. This isnt about the money this is about them feeling the way they made those people felt.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

It's neither silly nor inflammatory as it has happened to me, they didn't have any signage to say they were a specialist bakery, they just redirected me elsewhere and like most normal people I accepted it. This issue is actually trivialising real discrimation and for me it looks like they were looking for a payday rather than actually highlighting discrimination.

Cherie this is real discrimination, this is what it looks like.
As a rule those being discriminated against don't take the matter this far, personally I'm happy that these people had the courage to do so.

Their religious observance only became apparent as a counter, with a Hindu bakery that would not be the case as they obviously would not have any egg related items for sale, so basically they have no obligation to sell you something they don't have.

[Ronald.]

Are we still talking lesbian cakes? R

[Ronald.]

Originally Posted by VanessaFeltz.

When will people understand this is more than just cakes..............

This is about someone telling your face that they wont serve you because you are gay. There is no ifs and buts, these people are basically telling your face that you are not worthy of getting serviced based off something you cant control and a part of you.

Everyone have beliefs. It is not just about religion, some people think homosexuality is wrong, some people think religion is **** and religious people are lunatic. Everyone has an opinion on everything. That doesnt mean you have a right to voice EVERYTHING to peoples faces. For example when i found out majority of my classmates were wearing hijab i was very annoyed and i judged them. Did i ever make them uncomfortable by discriminating them or sprouding hateful words at their faces? No and i gave them equal chances to meet and get to know and couple of them turned out to be very liberal, lovely and smart people and we have become good friends.

When that hideous ugly ****** Melissa told their faces that they wont be serving them because they are a homosexual couple when they were SO happy that they were having one of the happiest days of their lives after living through discrimination and hate starting from their CHILDHOOD when they did nothing wrong. Imagine the feeling they had.. everyone lives through discrimination and hatred would feel ****ing awful after seeing this. This isnt about the money this is about them feeling the way they made those people felt.

Never thought I'd say these words but I agree with Vanessa Feltz. R

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Why is it stretch to to believe they follow the teachings of the bible, we have no problem with other faiths following their faiths to the letter but when it comes to Christian beliefs it's 'nah mate, thems homophobic innit". rather than accepting they might actually want to follow their bible

It really is a concern, when the historical majority faith of this country is treated as having less importance and less rights than those of minority faiths in the country.

People can't be tolerant to some religous beliefs and not others - that in itself is discrimination.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It really is a concern, when the historical majority faith of this country is treated as having less importance and less rights than those of minority faiths in the country.

People can't be tolerant to some religous beliefs and not others - that in itself is discrimination.

Since when was sexuality a faith?...

Do you mean the marginalised should just accept being marginalised as that's how it was, is and forever shall be?... pfffft!

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Since when was sexuality a faith?...

Do you mean the marginalised should just accept being marginalised as that's how it was, is and forever shall be?... pfffft!

Many faiths have issues with same sex relationships so therefore it clearly is related to faith and religion.

If for example someone were to excuse a Muslim cake shop from refusing to bake a cake for a same sex wedding based on their regions beliefs they cannot then accuse a Chritian shop of discrimination for doing so based on their regions beliefs.

That would be blatant discrimination.

[arista]

"When will people understand this is more than just cakes.............."

Of Course it is VF.

But in USA some states are not like LA or NYC.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Many faiths have issues with same sex relationships so therefore it clearly is related to faith and religion.

If for example someone were to excuse a Muslim cake shop from refusing to bake a cake for a same sex wedding based on their regions beliefs they cannot then accuse a Chritian shop of discrimination for doing so based on their regions beliefs.

That would be blatant discrimination.

But it's not a Christian Bakery nor is it a specialist bakery. Lovely Cakes is a normal bakery with Christian owners and that's where the problem lies. It would be common sense not to go to a religious place for custom made items for a gay wedding but that's not the case here.

Nobody has said they'd excuse a Muslim owner of it if they were in the same situation so you are literally using an imaginary situation to call people hypocrites based on imaginary things you've imagined them to say. You are inventing reasons to be offended.

Muslim BIGOTS would receive the same fine as these Christian BIGOTS because, in Oregon, even my example of a religious focused business from my last post wouldn't be exempt from Discrimination Laws since all Private Businesses in Oregon has to follow them.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Many faiths have issues with same sex relationships so therefore it clearly is related to faith and religion.

If for example someone were to excuse a Muslim cake shop from refusing to bake a cake for a same sex wedding based on their regions beliefs they cannot then accuse a Chritian shop of discrimination for doing so based on their regions beliefs.

That would be blatant discrimination.

That hasn't happened though has it?
Had a cake shop refused to make a cake for a same sex couple and when it went to court they said 'but we're Muslim' then I would expect the same outcome as this personally.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

But it's not a Christian Bakery nor is it a specialist bakery. Lovely Cakes is a normal bakery with Christian owners and that's where the problem lies. It would be common sense not to go to a religious place for custom made items for a gay wedding but that's not the case here.

Nobody has said they'd excuse a Muslim owner of it if they were in the same situation so you are literally using an imaginary situation to call people hypocrites based on imaginary things you've imagined them to say. You are inventing reasons to be offended.

Muslim BIGOTS would receive the same fine as these Christian BIGOTS because, in Oregon, even my example of a religious focused business from my last post wouldn't be exempt from Discrimination Laws since all Private Businesses in Oregon has to follow them.

I did state that my use of a Muslim bakery was an example, one I used especially as it is a religion often excused its many bigoted behaviours, whereas those doing such excusing often attempt to ridicule and undermine the Christian Religion for the same.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I did state that my use of a Muslim bakery was an example, one I used especially as it is a religion often excused its many bigoted behaviours, whereas those doing such excusing often attempt to ridicule and undermine the Christian Religion for the same.

And that doesn't change the fact that you are calling people hypocrites based on something you've imagined.

Also I don't think any posters on here have ever 'excused' bigoted behavior based on the fact that a muslim is responsible. What I do see a lot is people opposing islamophobic people like yourself from branding millions of innocent people are savages or monsters because you are blinded by your own hatred and fear and can't tell the forest from the trees when it comes to muslims.

The actions of a few do not represent a whole, that's the argument that is always being made against your islamophobia, you can't tell the difference between your average muslim and an extremist and that's why you constantly misrepresent people as defending muslims that are in the wrong rather than opposing the fact you tar millions of people with the same brush, because you can't comprehend the fact that the muslim community is as diverse and wide reaching as christians are.

I would say the exact same thing about the owners of this bakery if they were of any religion, that they are in the wrong.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I did state that my use of a Muslim bakery was an example, one I used especially as it is a religion often excused its many bigoted behaviours, whereas those doing such excusing often attempt to ridicule and undermine the Christian Religion for the same.

To be fair... and of course at the risk of stereotyping... how many take-aways are owned by Muslim owners? The answer is "a lot". And how many of those take-aways refuse to serve gay couples? The answer is "I've never heard of any!". There is a likelihood that those owners are "not really OK in principle" with homosexuality but they don't then refuse service based on that... and also, more importantly based on your complete strawman argument that "people would be fine with it if it was Muslims!"... no, I don't think people WOULD be ok with it if the local take-away started refusing to serve gay couples.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

And that doesn't change the fact that you are calling people hypocrites based on something you've imagined.

Also I don't think any posters on here have ever 'excused' bigoted behavior based on the fact that a muslim is responsible. What I do see a lot is people opposing islamophobic people like yourself from branding millions of innocent people are savages or monsters because you are blinded by your own hatred and fear and can't tell the forest from the trees when it comes to muslims.

The actions of a few do not represent a whole, that's the argument that is always being made against your islamophobia, you can't tell the difference between your average muslim and an extremist and that's why you constantly misrepresent people as defending muslims that are in the wrong rather than opposing the fact you tar millions of people with the same brush, because you can't comprehend the fact that the muslim community is as diverse and wide reaching as christians are.

I would say the exact same thing about the owners of this bakery if they were of any religion, that they are in the wrong.

If your statement about the reactions to the actions of a few were correct there wouldn't be the problems throughout Europe that there are. If it were just an insignificant few causing a few problems previously tolerant countries such as Sweden and Germany would not be re-thinking their position.

I have never said all Muslims are radical or share bigoted views but the number who do is significantly more than a few - that really is laughable. The more that come here the more radical Muslims will be living among us - that is the law of averages.

I personally dissaprove of the religon because it is filled with hate to many groups including Jews, Hindus, blacks, women, other Muslims, the list goes on. It is and never has been a tolerant or peaceful religion and brings little to our society with all its hate and double standards. At the very least we should be vetting everyone we let into our country and only take those that will enhance our country and its values.

Who used the word 'savages' certainly wasn't me - so once again no words in mouth please. You interpret based on your own perceptions the same as you accuse me of doing so your words are no more valid than mine - it is all about views and perception.

The difference being that if I am wrong then cultural diversity might not be quite as rich as maybe you would like but if you are wrong this country could become a very difficult place to live in the future as multiculturalism has never worked and only heightens the differences in cultures and belief systems which iin turn creates division and segregation.

[Toy Soldier]

Just as a matter of interest Brillo... would you say that the UK should take ANY refugees, then? How many would you say OK? Is it literally ZERO, and you would only let in migrants with "something to offer"?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Just as a matter of interest Brillo... would you say that the UK should take ANY refugees, then? How many would you say OK? Is it literally ZERO, and you would only let in migrants with "something to offer"?

For me a points system related to skills etc for the majority. As far as refugees go I think we cannot and should not take too many.

Obviously I can't put a figure on it but we have to put the safety and security of those already living in this country first and do thorough checks/ monitoring of everyone coming in. If we can't do that from a practical point of view then this has to reflect on the number of refugees we take in.

Anything else in my opinion is foolhardy and something we could all live to regret.