[Withano]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Religion itself doesn't cause wars or hatred....People use their interpretation as reason to commit heinous acts. "God" or whatever deity people believe in become an excuse. Most people who believe in religion do so for the right reasons but there are exceptions in all religions who will use it to justify their own actions. Religion brings peace and comfort to many.

Excellent post

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Two at least.

Three.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Lostie!

And by the same token, disproven. Not believing in it is all fine and well, actively lambasting and mocking people for believing in it (and using that to make unfair aspersions on their character) is something else entirely and nothing more than small-minded bigotry, something that people ironically like to exclusively blame religion for.



I think the same can be said for some anti-religious sentiments.

The only one who seems to be making unfair aspersions and name calling is you.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Isn't what a make believe god? ... There is only one.

How can you know? No one has ever been able to produce any proof.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Where did you hear there are?

I've got a lot of experience of living amongst Muslims. I used to live in Iran and so had plenty opportunity of seeing a woman's rights with my own eyes.

There are countries where majority Muslims are extremely hard on their women but there are countries where majority Muslims are not at all hard on their women. We can't or shouldn't put out blanket statements that its "all" Muslims.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

How can you know? No one has ever been able to produce any proof.

Are you suggesting the Christian and Islamist gods are two separate entities?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think we're pretty quick to forget, though, that Christians / Westerners didn't treat women (or homosexuals, or ethnic minorities) all that differently less than a century ago... and really no differently at all 150 years ago (the whole thing, from rights, to how much flesh women were allowed to show). The entire world doesn't, and never has, progressed at a uniform rate. We move on, and then are outraged when the rest of the world - which has not had the same time nor opportunity to culturally develop - is not on exactly the same page at exactly the same time.

And that's without even going into the horrible reality that we currently seem to be majorly back-sliding.

I've highlighted the operative phrase. It's a backward thinking religion that treats women like second class citizens, sell off female children as brides, kill women they think offend the family etc. etc. etc...... and I don't want it spreading until they can address that.

Lumping Islam in with other religions that have evolved to be inclusive of women... even if that inclusion isn't perfect yet... is offensive. But then. religious people are allowed to be targeted because people who don't believe can't understand them.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I've got a lot of experience of living amongst Muslims. I used to live in Iran and so had plenty opportunity of seeing a woman's rights with my own eyes.

Salam! That's very interesting, how did you come to live in Iran and when were you there? How did you get along under Sharia law? A good friend of mine works as a journalist for an Iranian news organisation.

There are countries where majority Muslims are extremely hard on their women but there are countries where majority Muslims are not at all hard on their women. We can't or shouldn't put out blanket statements that its "all" Muslims.

Saying a group of men are not hard on women doesn't really sound that confidence building to me. A not having someone be hard on them doesn't necessarily indicate that they have the same freedoms we enjoy.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Livia

I've highlighted the operative phrase. It's a backward thinking religion that treats women like second class citizens, sell off female children as brides, kill women they think offend the family etc. etc. etc...... and I don't want it spreading until they can address that.

Lumping Islam in with other religions that have evolved to be inclusive of women... even if that inclusion isn't perfect yet... is offensive. But then. religious people are allowed to be targeted because people who don't believe can't understand them.

I think for me the problem is more about religion creating rules for people to live by, often rules that include what amounts to child trafficking, cruelty, abuse, leaving women stuck in miserable lives with no recourse to escape, as you mention in your first para. Many religions seem to think that we have not progressed a thousand years and do not belong in the modern world.

Where religion doesn't interfere and gives comfort and attempts to modernise then it isn't an issue though I agree I do not particularly understand faith.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

I've highlighted the operative phrase. It's a backward thinking religion that treats women like second class citizens, sell off female children as brides, kill women they think offend the family etc. etc. etc...... and I don't want it spreading until they can address that.

Lumping Islam in with other religions that have evolved to be inclusive of women... even if that inclusion isn't perfect yet... is offensive. But then. religious people are allowed to be targeted because people who don't believe can't understand them.

You do realise this is an Islamophobic comment don't you? Every religion has it's fundamentalists, even yours.

Again here we have the premise that if you are not religious you are a non believer which is totally wrong.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Are you suggesting the Christian and Islamist gods are two separate entities?

Supporters of Islam do.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Supporters of Islam do.

That's not what I asked... And how do you know this?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You do realise this is an Islamophobic comment don't you? Every religion has it's fundamentalists, even yours.

An belief/idea is not a fact and therefore open to criticism. Stop trying to close down criticism of dictorial religions. It is not your right to do so.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That's not what I asked... And how do you know this?

They shout it often enough.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You do realise this is an Islamophobic comment don't you? Every religion has it's fundamentalists, even yours.

Again here we have the premise that if you are not religious you are a non believer which is totally wrong.

How is that an islamaphobic comment? Livia has a faith, she is speaking about the attitudes of non believers to those of faith. I think you owe her an apology.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Salam! That's very interesting, how did you come to live in Iran and when were you there? How did you get along under Sharia law? A good friend of mine works as a journalist for an Iranian news organisation.

Saying a group of men are not hard on women doesn't really sound that confidence building to me. A not having someone be hard on them doesn't necessarily indicate that they have the same freedoms we enjoy.

I married an Iranian and lived for a while in Masuleh. Our first son was born in Iran. My husband wasn't Muslim, he was a Christian but that didn't stop our Muslim friends making us welcome in their home. Most of them were Muslim by name only. They drank alcohol and smoked. The only fanatics I met were more of a nuisance to everyone than anything else but then we didn't live in Tehran which is a very different kettle of fish.

The women in Iran don't have the same freedoms we have in the West because they have a religious government who put huge restrictions on women. Most Iranian women living in France and the UK don't cover or abide by all that religious bollocks inflicted on them by state rule in their own land and their husbands are happy for them to have that freedom.

So what news organization is it? I follow Iranian news regularly for obvious reasons.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

An belief/idea is not a fact and therefore open to criticism. Stop trying to close down criticism of dictorial religions. It is not your right to do so.

This is a debate forum, I have every right to speak as I find. You are under no obligation to respond.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I married an Iranian and lived for a while in Masuleh. Our first son was born in Iran. My husband wasn't Muslim, he was a Christian but that didn't stop our Muslim friends making us welcome in their home. Most of them were Muslim by name only. They drank alcohol and smoked. The only fanatics I met were more of a nuisance to everyone than anything else but then we didn't live in Tehran which is a very different kettle of fish.

The women in Iran don't have the same freedoms we have in the West because they have a religious government who put huge restrictions on women. Most Iranian women living in France and the UK don't cover or abide by all that religious bollocks inflicted on them by state rule in their own land and their husbands are happy for them to have that freedom.

So what news organization is it? I follow Iranian news regularly for obvious reasons.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here but what if their husbands were not happy for them to have that freedom - isn't that the crux of the matter?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

How is that an islamaphobic comment? Livia has a faith, she is speaking about the attitudes of non believers to those of faith. I think you owe her an apology.

I'm sure that is obvious to most, if Livia requires clarification I'm sure she'll ask. You needed police my comments.

It is based on an assumption that non religious are also non believers, no apology is necessary.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I married an Iranian and lived for a while in Masuleh. Our first son was born in Iran. My husband wasn't Muslim, he was a Christian but that didn't stop our Muslim friends making us welcome in their home. Most of them were Muslim by name only. They drank alcohol and smoked. The only fanatics I met were more of a nuisance to everyone than anything else but then we didn't live in Tehran which is a very different kettle of fish.

The women in Iran don't have the same freedoms we have in the West because they have a religious government who put huge restrictions on women. Most Iranian women living in France and the UK don't cover or abide by all that religious bollocks inflicted on them by state rule in their own land and their husbands are happy for them to have that freedom.

So what news organization is it? I follow Iranian news regularly for obvious reasons.

It sounds quite liberal. My friend tells me people in Iran are very friendly though many a time has sat in a hot place having dinner with couples where the men can roll up their shirt sleeves and the women aren't allowed to take off their jackets so have to sit and sweat but that could very well be a rule of the restaurant or the husbands involved, I've no way of knowing, just passing on what I was told.

But if it is more liberal than we think why did they arrest the young people who made the video to Pharrell Williams's "Happy"? It looks pretty harmless to me. Seems a bit strange. I wonder actually what happened to them.

Posted because it's joyful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg5qdIxVcz8

Oh I'm not going to quote where my friend works without her permission, it's not really relevant beyond saying she works as a journalist for an Iranian news organisation.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I'm not trying to be argumentative here but what if their husbands were not happy for them to have that freedom - isn't that the crux of the matter?

That's a totally meaningless statement though? What if they WERE happy for them to have that freedom? As many definitely are?

You just assume that all Muslim husbands want their wives controlled because you have a cartoon character image in your head of over a billion people.

Are you genuinely unaware that there are still plenty of Christian men who feel that the woman's place is in the home, etc etc? This was a pretty common view 50/60 years ago and a HUGE number of the older generation believe it to this day. The whole idea of "The Man Of The House" is far from gone from western mindsets.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's a totally meaningless statement though? What if they WERE happy for them to have that freedom? As many definitely are?

You just assume that all Muslim husbands want their wives controlled because you have a cartoon character image in your head of over a billion people.

Are you genuinely unaware that there are still plenty of Christian men who feel that the woman's place is in the home, etc etc? This was a pretty common view 50/60 years ago and a HUGE number of the older generation believe it to this day. The whole idea of "The Man Of The House" is far from gone from western mindsets.

Of course I'm aware of that - I'm a woman I have lived it but for many women it feels like such attitudes are here again with this religion constantly trying to challenge our place in the world. In the modern world these kind of 'beliefs' aren't tolerated with racism and homosexuality and shouldn't be tolerated with sexism.

It's like a black cloud of discrimination against women descending once again.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's a totally meaningless statement though? What if they WERE happy for them to have that freedom? As many definitely are?

You just assume that all Muslim husbands want their wives controlled because you have a cartoon character image in your head of over a billion people.

Are you genuinely unaware that there are still plenty of Christian men who feel that the woman's place is in the home, etc etc? This was a pretty common view 50/60 years ago and a HUGE number of the older generation believe it to this day. The whole idea of "The Man Of The House" is far from gone from western mindsets.

That's quite true, and don't get me started on the Roman Catholic's or we will be here all day. Though they don't actually make them cover up from head to foot and maintain they are meant to cast down their eyes as well to their feet.

I should also add I have nothing against individual Catholics, brown, green, purple or not, before you start implying.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It has in general but for many women it feels like such attitudes are here again with this religion constantly trying to challenge our place in the world. These kind of 'beliefs' aren't tolerated with racism and homosexuality and shouldn't be tolerated with sexism.

It's like a black cloud of discrimination against women descending once again.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with the backlash against feminism from western people. Trump voting, Brexit craving, wish-it-was-still-like-the-old-days fish 'n' chips regressionists desperately trying to drag us all back to the union jack waving 50's.

Well guess what.

Women were still second class citizens in the 50's.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

That's quite true, and don't get me started on the Roman Catholic's or we will be here all day. Though they don't actually make them cover up from head to foot and maintain they are meant to cast down their eyes as well to their feet.

I should also add I have nothing against individual Catholics, brown, green, purple or not, before you start implying.

'Currently, 62 percent of Slovakia's 5.4 million population are declared Roman Catholics.'

From the article in the OP... what was that about repressing women?