[Withano]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Priority to our own? Go tell that to the people living on the streets of London in the cold weather.

I think they understand basic mathematics and that more money goes to unfortunate uk citizens than it does citizens across the world combined.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Maru

The urgency to address our social welfare programs and failing infrastructure should be priority #1. As that would hinder our ability to not only help ourselves, but help others. The problem... we don't have a modern day Alexander Hamilton who is willing to look at these programs recursively and figure out just how deep in the hole we are in. So for all we know we may be in a state of emergency. Instead, our leadership is too busy buying votes and addressing society's emotional arguments rather than taking a fine toothed comb to our quite over-sized, overly complex tax code, national budget, social welfare programs, etc...all needs to be overhauled to stay maintainable.

Anyway, it is my belief... if this were to be discovered and we find out we are in deep hole, they need to shut off all aid and declare a state of emergency. There are areas in our deep metros, centers of poverty and crime that are really hurting. There is also risk of other communities that should this continue to go unchecked, could grow exponentially. We are already seeing a need for law enforcement costs to rise...which would just be another line item to add to our national debt if the cities then have to turn to federal (i.e. state of emergency) to address these rising costs.

Our jails are full, our average law enforcement officer has an increasingly large amount of roles to fulfill... meanwhile, we are not addressing these problems in any form, except in 'social welfare' programs that are growing our national debt to levels it's never been... it's in our interest to get back to being as independent as possible, to deal with these issues, to bring back the middle class... and honestly, nobody will starve. Philanthropy is alive and well in our nations. When those people get back on their feet, people will donate... just as they already do now.

This is also ignoring the elephants in the room, the segments of our world population/local communities that actively choose to stay the course... because they depend on this income to maintain their way of life (rich or poor).

My husband has told me numerous stories of people coming to mental health detentions that have said plain and clear, they are there for the free drugs (in the form of pharmaceuticals) and purposefully get into trouble so they can game the system. Instead, the DOJ (Department of Justice) wants to give them even more incentive/room to abuse the system than than afford us more officers which would help to better to keep situations under control (i.e. lessen brutality) and also to give those with mental health issues the attention and dignity ... the help they do deserve.

Personally, I have no problems with giving out aid... but it's well proven the enormous amount of trouble that is brewing with regards to our budgets, our welfare problems... and instead we've chosen to pass the buck for the past 10 to 15 years. Yet, our politicians continue writing blank checks or otherwise adding to our debt rather than addressing these issues. If we don't act on these signs, it could take us all under... and worse, may happen at a time when it is 20X more expensive to fix than it is now. Taking the global economy with it.

So in short... if we comb through these issues and still find we have the cash flow to spare, then sure, we should pick and choose and selectively choose who to aid (i.e. not aiding countries deeply rooted in terrorism) as that would be the moral thing to do... however, it needs to be a set with a timeline... otherwise we need to stop aid and put ourselves in a state of emergency to get these issues under control. They are also contributing substantially to our social issues as well, which are also growing at an alarmingly rate... especially police brutality, various poverty stricken minority communities (such as New Orleans post-Katrina), kids leaving school only to find a lack of jobs (while carrying a mortgage sized student loan payment monthly), rising costs of medical which strips everyone's bottom line, rising taxes on small businesses (which leads to chains/monopolies)... oh and all our environmental issues... etc

My concern is if we continue to ignore these issues, soon it will be so devastatingly expensive to fix, i.e. that we will be in a massively deep hole and then we will all be in trouble... including countries where the situation is already desperate.

My political take on this too is we should never give aid to countries that are deeply embedded in or otherwise in bed with terrorist organizations, sects, movements of any kind... i.e. if you make it a comfortable battleground for these people, you should expect the rest of the world to turn their noses up to you come time you need anything. Instead, we may end up in bed with them... for oil, for contacts, for intelligence, whatever reasoning one can justify such things...

I know personally many family members and friends who have donated to time, energy and materials to different causes over the years. I am involved in animal rescue myself. My grandmother alone, has donated over $5,000 of her own income to charitable causes... and she is on a fixed income There are positive acts happening all around us... but some reason, these acts mean very little to people in comparison to dragging our government's into philanthropy when I know at least my own government in particular has shown repeatedly it's epic amount of greed, poor spending habits and waste of taxpayer money and resources to any cause. I would better trust my donated to the source rather than... a govt who doesn't pick and choose, but instead squanders our funds for God knows what...

Very intelligently put Maru.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Withano

I think they understand basic mathematics and that more money goes to unfortunate uk citizens than it does citizens across the world combined.

How wonderful of you to speak for them and their circumstances.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Maru

The urgency to address our social welfare programs and failing infrastructure should be priority #1. As that would hinder our ability to not only help ourselves, but help others. The problem... we don't have a modern day Alexander Hamilton who is willing to look at these programs recursively and figure out just how deep in the hole we are in. So for all we know we may be in a state of emergency. Instead, our leadership is too busy buying votes and addressing society's emotional arguments rather than taking a fine toothed comb to our quite over-sized, overly complex tax code, national budget, social welfare programs, etc...all needs to be overhauled to stay maintainable.

Anyway, it is my belief... if this were to be discovered and we find out we are in deep hole, they need to shut off all aid and declare a state of emergency. There are areas in our deep metros, centers of poverty and crime that are really hurting. There is also risk of other communities that should this continue to go unchecked, could grow exponentially. We are already seeing a need for law enforcement costs to rise...which would just be another line item to add to our national debt if the cities then have to turn to federal (i.e. state of emergency) to address these rising costs.

Our jails are full, our average law enforcement officer has an increasingly large amount of roles to fulfill... meanwhile, we are not addressing these problems in any form, except in 'social welfare' programs that are growing our national debt to levels it's never been... it's in our interest to get back to being as independent as possible, to deal with these issues, to bring back the middle class... and honestly, nobody will starve. Philanthropy is alive and well in our nations. When those people get back on their feet, people will donate... just as they already do now.

This is also ignoring the elephants in the room, the segments of our world population/local communities that actively choose to stay the course... because they depend on this income to maintain their way of life (rich or poor).

My husband has told me numerous stories of people coming to mental health detentions that have said plain and clear, they are there for the free drugs (in the form of pharmaceuticals) and purposefully get into trouble so they can game the system. Instead, the DOJ (Department of Justice) wants to give them even more incentive/room to abuse the system than than afford us more officers which would help to better to keep situations under control (i.e. lessen brutality) and also to give those with mental health issues the attention and dignity ... the help they do deserve.

Personally, I have no problems with giving out aid... but it's well proven the enormous amount of trouble that is brewing with regards to our budgets, our welfare problems... and instead we've chosen to pass the buck for the past 10 to 15 years. Yet, our politicians continue writing blank checks or otherwise adding to our debt rather than addressing these issues. If we don't act on these signs, it could take us all under... and worse, may happen at a time when it is 20X more expensive to fix than it is now. Taking the global economy with it.

So in short... if we comb through these issues and still find we have the cash flow to spare, then sure, we should pick and choose and selectively choose who to aid (i.e. not aiding countries deeply rooted in terrorism) as that would be the moral thing to do... however, it needs to be a set with a timeline... otherwise we need to stop aid and put ourselves in a state of emergency to get these issues under control. They are also contributing substantially to our social issues as well, which are also growing at an alarmingly rate... especially police brutality, various poverty stricken minority communities (such as New Orleans post-Katrina), kids leaving school only to find a lack of jobs (while carrying a mortgage sized student loan payment monthly), rising costs of medical which strips everyone's bottom line, rising taxes on small businesses (which leads to chains/monopolies)... oh and all our environmental issues... etc

My concern is if we continue to ignore these issues, soon it will be so devastatingly expensive to fix, i.e. that we will be in a massively deep hole and then we will all be in trouble... including countries where the situation is already desperate.

My political take on this too is we should never give aid to countries that are deeply embedded in or otherwise in bed with terrorist organizations, sects, movements of any kind... i.e. if you make it a comfortable battleground for these people, you should expect the rest of the world to turn their noses up to you come time you need anything. Instead, we may end up in bed with them... for oil, for contacts, for intelligence, whatever reasoning one can justify such things...

I know personally many family members and friends who have donated time, energy and materials to different causes over the years. I am involved in animal rescue myself. My grandmother alone, has donated over $5,000 yearly of her own income to charitable causes... and she is on a fixed income There are positive acts happening all around us... but some reason, these acts mean very little to people in comparison to dragging our government's into philanthropy when I know at least my own government in particular has shown repeatedly it's epic amount of greed, poor spending habits and waste of taxpayer money and resources to any cause. I would better trust my donated to the source rather than... a govt who doesn't pick and choose, but instead squanders our funds for God knows what...

[Withano]

Originally Posted by jaxie

How wonderful of you to speak for them and their circumstances.

How did i speak for them any more than you did. You implied they dont know which numbers are larger than others, I said that they probably did.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Withano

How did i speak for them any more than you did. You implied they dont know which numbers are larger than others, I said that they probably did.

I didn't say anything about numbers.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Priority to our own? Go tell that to the people living on the streets of London in the cold weather.

I don't know how it is over there but I know here the majority of homeless people are there because they have other issues like alcoholism or drug addictions etc and they don't go through the proper system to get housing/benefits. Our social welfare system is pretty generous

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't know how it is over there but I know here the majority of homeless people are there because they have other issues like alcoholism or drug addictions etc and they don't go through the proper system to get housing/benefits. Our social welfare system is pretty generous

Our disability (which is what they would be under) system is a joke really... you can't make more than $300 gross a month in order to apply and it takes multiple rejections to be accepted (to see a judge) and often sometimes costs money to win a case.

Sadly, we know the system well because of a neurological disorder that runs in the family. A long time friend is a disability lawyer and he's had to make sure some of his clients don't stand too close to a judge so that his case won't get thrown out. Of course they had to pay to get help...

So if you aren't able to work because you're sick and you can't depend on anyone... AND you need doctor's thorough proof you need assistance (which costs money ).... and this may process can take 1 1/2 - 3 years... yeah...

I don't know what the solution should be, but we almost certainly don't take care of our own. I drive by homeless veterans everyday and even if you apply, you need an address and phone number for most things... therein lies the issue. Though I think being in jail helps them get that help sometimes, ironically enough.... but if you're jailed, then you may end up with a record (such as stealing) which prohibits you from getting even a minimum wage job... meanwhile you can't even start the care you actually need... thus begins the cycle.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't know how it is over there but I know here the majority of homeless people are there because they have other issues like alcoholism or drug addictions etc and they don't go through the proper system to get housing/benefits. Our social welfare system is pretty generous

The problem is that some people find themselves in a catch 22. Need an address to get benefits, on the streets so don't have an address. There are people with problems and mental health issues on the streets. That doesn't mean we should abandon them because they have other issues. There are also a lot of runaways.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

The problem is that some people find themselves in a catch 22. Need an address to get benefits, on the streets so don't have an address. There are people with problems and mental health issues on the streets. That doesn't mean we should abandon them because they have other issues. There are also a lot of runaways.

I never said they should be abandoned but sometimes people need to want to take the help as well

[Kizzy]

'Why you want to remove aid entirely to one and use that money to go towards solving some issues partially for the other is beyond me.'

Because they live a long long way away plus they are a different *religion * creed * colour to us ( delete where appropriate).
It sickens me that the choice to wave our bloodstained flag rather than face our ongoing issues surrounding exploitation and conflict is the most jaw droppingly pig headed response to this issue.

Did cameron not buy himself a private jet while we were sending all this aid we could ill afford? While we were up to our tits in 'austerity' reeling from a worldwide recession ? While kids slept rough in the uk and families relied on food banks to eat?

It's laughable to suggest that this is why the choice for many is heat or eat, if we gave no international aid there would still be the casting adrift of undesirables... that is the conservative laissez-faire way, sink or swim, no safety net.

How many (illegal) wars and conflicts have we embroiled ourselves in over our recent history, how much devastation have they caused? How did the costs of these conflicts impact on us financially?

If we give more it's because we took more, and we're STILL taking!