[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

It's frankly a bit bigoted to expect or accept lower expectations from people based on the amount of pigment in their skin. If someone's homophobic, I generally see them as a jerk, regardless of skin colour.

There's been a somewhat funny catch-22 of bigotry at my daughter's school recently (everyone involved is 13 - 14)... a girl has moved to the school who has come from Nigeria. Small town Scotland so really not much racial diversity, but no real racism issues except with one kid... who was being openly racist... but is also openly (and clearly) gay... and the girl (being heavily Christian and from Nigeria) is openly homophobic .

I swear, the DRAMA of it all, and the school tying themselves in knots because they have a zero-tolerance policy for both but I don't think have ever encountered a situation where it's Racism vs Homophobia . It all got quite vicious over Snapchat. Better than EastEnders tbh.

[Redway]

But the point is, Ollie, homophobia is a learned and handed-down part of black cultures worldwide, which is why black people are far more likely than white people and even British/eastern/south-eastern Asians (the undiluted Indian sub-continent can be pretty homophobic) to a certain extent to be very grossed-out by and against L.G.B.T. stuff (especially when it’s men or transgender people involved). A lot of white people just accept that it kind of comes with the cultural territory (and it’s certainly not all or even the vastest majority of black people but it’s a disproportionate amount of we’re being honest) but I know what you mean about it not being on. If you’re cheating on your wife every other day but still have the cheek and the audacity to use the Bible to excuse being a flagrant homophobe you’re a class-A tool. There’s nothing in the Bible that puts homosexuality on a special taboo-pedestal when it comes to what’s considered sin. If you’re a homophobe (or an internalised homophobe), just say that outright and own it if it’s bigotry you want to do.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

There's been a somewhat funny catch-22 of bigotry at my daughter's school recently (everyone involved is 13 - 14)... a girl has moved to the school who has come from Nigeria. Small town Scotland so really not much racial diversity, but no real racism issues except with one kid... who was being openly racist... but is also openly (and clearly) gay... and the girl (being heavily Christian and from Nigeria) is openly homophobic .

I swear, the DRAMA of it all, and the school tying themselves in knots because they have a zero-tolerance policy for both but I don't think have ever encountered a situation where it's Racism vs Homophobia . It all got quite vicious over Snapchat. Better than EastEnders tbh.

Typical Nigerians do need to learn to keep their mouths shout when it comes to L.G.B.T. prejudice. Some of these people now are not even up to 2 weeks in the U.K. and roll up at Tesco expecting to be able to pay in Naira notes but somehow have enough cultural savviness to know when to pull the race-card, while still expecting it to be okay to be as overtly homophobic as they come. Nigerians are some of my favourite people in the world but the hypocrisy can be a lot. Sometimes black people are their own worst enemy. Doing the work in the community to at least suppress certain beliefs in mixed company and recognise that active discrimination of all kinds isn’t on is more important and beneficial long-term than pointing out every supposed micro-aggression in the world that white people are supposedly guilty of just by breathing.

Edit: didn’t mean that thumbs-down smiley. It just came out of nowhere.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

No but the rates of teenage girls identifying as trans-male has increased exponentially over the last few years and is not being properly addressed in ways that actually consider the psychology and mental health of young females, because of the blind push for "gender affirming" in the medical community and schools.

Don't listen to Liam on this stuff Zizu, he's an unfortunate combination of ignorant and biased. I highly doubt he knows anything at all about what's going on with teenagers in schools over the last few years, other than what he's read online, from very select sources.

Teens identifying as the opposite sex at school are just kids enjoying the attention they wouldnt have otherwise.

[Soldier Boy]

To be fair, i think there's plenty of inherited/cultural homophobia in certain white demographics too ... especially when you think of Bible Belt USA for example. The common denominator seems to be religiosity when it comes right down to it. The black communities who openly have trouble with homophobia are often also quite strongly Christian.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

To be fair, i think there's plenty of inherited/cultural homophobia in certain white demographics too ... especially when you think of Bible Belt USA for example. The common denominator seems to be religiosity when it comes right down to it. The black communities who openly have trouble with homophobia are often also quite strongly Christian.

True. The Bible Belt in the U.S. is brutal, too. But I think one difference you’ll notice is that white L.G.B. (let’s just leave the T out for now) people from the Deep South still have a certain leeway/freedom to be open about their sexuality because being white is a certain protective factor when it comes to being more broadly accepted. Black L.G.B. people open up about it at their own risk, wherever they are. The funny thing is black people are estimated to have slightly more L.G.B. (again, let’s just allow the T-factor for now) people than whites do but they’re more likely to keep quiet about it because there’s nowhere for them to run, unlike white Bible Belt-descendants out of South Carolina or Georgia if they’re not straight. That’s why so many black men especially are on the down-low.

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Teens identifying as the opposite sex at school are just kids enjoying the attention they wouldnt have otherwise.

I think that's 90% true and I think the easy litmus test is what happens when the novelty/attention dies down. There were several "trans boys" when she started high school at 11. Now at 14, all but one (possibly 2) of them have reverted to being girls (usually a stepping process: They were boys, then non-binary, then gender fluid, then back to being "cis girls").

There are a couple who seem to have settled into living as boys and that tends to be how people see them at this point.

It does tend to make me think that there's more than one thing going on and it's all lumped under the same bracket, it all "looks" the same but it isn't.

I find that to be even more so the case in adult trans women, as it goes. Some of it harmless, some of it not, unfortunately all banded under the same header so a criticism of one looks like a criticism of all.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I think that's 90% true and I think the easy litmus test is what happens when the novelty/attention dies down. There were several "trans boys" when she started high school at 11. Now at 14, all but one (possibly 2) of them have reverted to being girls (usually a stepping process: They were boys, then non-binary, then gender fluid, then back to being "cis girls").

There are a couple who seem to have settled into living as boys and that tends to be how people see them at this point.

It does tend to make me think that there's more than one thing going on and it's all lumped under the same bracket, it all "looks" the same but it isn't.

I find that to be even more so the case in adult trans women, as it goes. Some of it harmless, some of it not, unfortunately all banded under the same header so a criticism of one looks like a criticism of all.

Like Niamh said (I forgot to quote her before but she made some really good points) it is quite reverse-sexist low-key for tomboyish girls to identify as the opposite sex because of internalised patriarchy/misogyny (as you pointed out). Gender is in many ways a social construct so … yeah. Just own your ‘tomboyishness’ (like Sam. off iCarly in the first handful of seasons). None of that makes you inherently a butch lesbian or non-cis. It just makes you you.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I think it all became different when "gender" took on a life of it's own and now people are trying to push for it to mean more/be more important than sex. Imo gender was always just the "polite" word for sex but they were the same thing. Gender roles are an expression of or expectation of how you should express yourself because of your sex, back in the 80's/90's we were trying to to get rid of those boxes, I find all of this stuff really regressive actually

Sexism = the women should do the dishes.

Feminism = men or women can do the dishes.

Gender ideology = whoever is doing the dishes is a woman.

Exactly, Niamh. Any ‘fluidity’ thereof (which is just human nature and gender stereotypes are somewhat contradictory when you look at them through a historical lens - a prime example being pink being seen as a feminine colour since the 1930s/’40s, whereas before that it was considered quite masculine and females were the ones who were blue) is still ultimately based on the two biological sexes (which is the only certainty in all of it). You’re either biologically one or the other (unless you’re one of those genuinely rare intersexual people who were obviously born that way) but beyond that it’s a case of stereotypes being peddled as having anything other than maybe the slightest biological backing to them and that’s where it just all goes wrong. In 2023 we should be beyond all that.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

To be fair, i think there's plenty of inherited/cultural homophobia in certain white demographics too ... especially when you think of Bible Belt USA for example. The common denominator seems to be religiosity when it comes right down to it. The black communities who openly have trouble with homophobia are often also quite strongly Christian.

But then again there’s Russia, which happens not to be a particularly religious country (as far as I know) but of their own accord incredibly homophobic.

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Redway

Like Niamh said (I forgot to quote her before but she made some really good points) it is quite reverse-sexist low-key for tomboyish girls to identify as the opposite sex because of internalised patriarchy/misogyny (as you pointed out). Gender is in many ways a social construct so … yeah. Just own your ‘tomboyishness’ (like Sam. off iCarly in the first handful of seasons). None of that makes you inherently a butch lesbian or non-cis. It just makes you you.

It is interesting and I think it affects males too but not to the same extent, and I think you can see that in gender expression in cis gay people over the years too. "Butch" gay women have ALWAYS been viewed as "manly" in the mainstream, whereas "less manly" gay men, whilst seen in ways as effeminate, has always been described differently, as "camp gay men" but nonetheless still distinctly a category of men, not "womanly". The latter being how it should be, of course, as you pointed out - having personality traits that are "traditionally" one gender or the other doesn't and shouldn't have to mean anything at all.

I swear I remember being quite confused as a younger kid and wondering if I "wasn't a real boy" simply because all the other boys liked football and I didn't. Which in hindsight as an adult is ridiculous - even once you get to the teens and other people start finally admitting they're not that fussed for sports either.

Again I do think there's different things going on for different people but I wonder WHAT IF it was 2023 and young-me had expressed that to my parents and they had, wanting to be understanding and affirming, said "Well yes actually maybe you are a girl!" instead of "lol not all boys like football, some of your friends love it as much as they say, some of them are just trying to fit in."

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Redway

But then again there’s Russia, which happens not to be a particularly religious country (as far as I know) but of their own accord incredibly homophobic.

From what I know of Russia they have very clear ideas about "masculinity" in general, it seems to be a different thing sort of unique to Russia (and a lot of Eastern Europe too I suppose, anywhere Russian-influenced historically)

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

It is interesting and I think it affects males too but not to the same extent, and I think you can see that in gender expression in cis gay people over the years too. "Butch" gay women have ALWAYS been viewed as "manly" in the mainstream, whereas "less manly" gay men, whilst seen in ways as effeminate, has always been described differently, as "camp gay men" but nonetheless still distinctly a category of men, not "womanly". The latter being how it should be, of course, as you pointed out - having personality traits that are "traditionally" one gender or the other doesn't and shouldn't have to mean anything at all.

I swear I remember being quite confused as a younger kid and wondering if I "wasn't a real boy" simply because all the other boys liked football and I didn't. Which in hindsight as an adult is ridiculous - even once you get to the teens and other people start finally admitting they're not that fussed for sports either.

Again I do think there's different things going on for different people but I wonder WHAT IF it was 2023 and young-me had expressed that to my parents and they had, wanting to be understanding and affirming, said "Well yes actually maybe you are a girl!" instead of "lol not all boys like football, some of your friends love it as much as they say, some of them are just trying to fit in."

Football obsession is for boys, not men. Adults should have more important things to worry and think about than Ronaldo’s next goal. I’ve never been a big football fan but I always liked boxing/wrestling, skateboarding, computer games (I never bothered with xBox/PlayStation, nor have I ever owned one, but I’d play those types of games - naturally besides FIFA, which I obviously sucked at - at mates’/cousins’ houses and I still do from time to time), … ya. (When I wasn’t reading.) Boxing and wrestling is arguably more masculine (and certainly more interesting) than watching over-paid 29-year-olds trying to kick one silly ball into a goal-post. I understand having a moderate lifelong interest in football (especially considering Liverpool’s actually one of my home-towns) but what I don’t get is the crazy obsession that so many men used to have in it before the pandemic (I think it’s calmed down a bit). Eventually even footballers have to grow up and find a proper career where they’ll be paid much more averagely.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Redway

But the point is, Ollie, homophobia is a learned and handed-down part of black cultures worldwide,

It wasn't much different with white until fairly recently. "It's always been that way" isn't an excuse.

[Redway]

There’s this Nigerian media clown called Bobrisky (he’s been popular since at least 2017, maybe before) who’s a camp “cross-dresser” but the funny thing is he openly opposes gay rights. I don’t know who he thinks he’s kidding but at least he’s not as bad as Obialor James Brown (a mini wannabe version with H.I.V. who’s known for giving himself hysterical, badly-acted seizures over the littlest world happening, including the Queen - who he won’t have ever even met - passing away). Everything about that James Brown idiot (besides one interview where he actually came across as quite measured and calm) repulses me.

[Redway]

https://youtu.be/vWtG7gjaQCc

https://youtu.be/VHHkCsbdS00

Here the idiot is. He’s half Yoruba, half Igbo (two major Nigerian ethnic groups). I couldn’t tell you which of his parents died from H.I.V. but whoever did passed it onto him and he’s made a name for himself partly on the basis of that. He’s just a disgrace.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

There's been a somewhat funny catch-22 of bigotry at my daughter's school recently (everyone involved is 13 - 14)... a girl has moved to the school who has come from Nigeria. Small town Scotland so really not much racial diversity, but no real racism issues except with one kid... who was being openly racist... but is also openly (and clearly) gay... and the girl (being heavily Christian and from Nigeria) is openly homophobic .

I swear, the DRAMA of it all, and the school tying themselves in knots because they have a zero-tolerance policy for both but I don't think have ever encountered a situation where it's Racism vs Homophobia . It all got quite vicious over Snapchat. Better than EastEnders tbh.

A straight white lad would have been suspended immediately.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Redway

There’s this Nigerian media clown called Bobrisky (he’s been popular since at least 2017, maybe before) who’s a camp “cross-dresser” but the funny thing is he openly opposes gay rights. I don’t know who he thinks he’s kidding

Meh. A lot of drag queens are straight. All of the New York Dolls were straight, and at least some were actively homophobic.

[Zizu]

….

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Zizu

….

He’s answered that question already, has he not?

[LeatherTrumpet]

going by the nasty threatening actions of the trans mob

its very much a mental disorder rooted in gay male aggression against women

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Because it literally is?

A discordance between mind and body can hardly be called anything else.

I know I've used this comparison a zillion times already, but when there's someone whose brain is telling them they're fat despite all evidence, there's no controversy about acknowledging they have a mental disorder.

Why should it be different with gender?

What would you do if one of your kids outed themselves as trans. to you? Part of me dreads to think, I can’t lie. I know the likes of Soldier Boy wouldn’t be too happy about it but no-one’s made quite as much of a name for being an educated anti-trans. person as you.

[Redway]

And why am I only just realising that Soulja Boy (who actually came out with some decent beats circa 2006/2007) is a totally cool side-name for “Soldier Boy”?

Ey? How about that, T.S.?

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Redway

And why am I only just realising that Soulja Boy (who actually came out with some decent beats circa 2006/2007) is a totally cool side-name for “Soldier Boy”?

Ey? How about that, T.S.?

Youtube video

Doesn't have the same emotional impact as Martika, I can't lie. We never win, but the battle wages on...

Miss you, little trooper. *sniffle*

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Redway

What would you do if one of your kids outed themselves as trans. to you? Part of me dreads to think, I can’t lie. I know the likes of Soldier Boy wouldn’t be too happy about it but no-one’s made quite as much of a name for being an educated anti-trans. person as you.

Well I've never claimed to be particularly educated on the subject

To answer your question, I'd be far from thrilled, just like if my hypothetic children had any other form of dysmorphia or mental disorders. I wouldn’t disown them or anything over it.

Due to the way my siblings and I were brought up -a combination of self-acceptance and self-criticism, ultimately amounting to self awareness- and little to no unsupervised internet access before sixteen, none of us would "be" trans if it didn't come from a place of body dysmorphia, we wouldn't fall for social contagian or anything like that.

But in the same way the world -and internet!- was a different place now to what it was when we (my siblings and I) were.young teens, it may well be different again when my future children are at that age.
So while I like to think I'd replicate (within reason and context) the same techniques when I have kids, it might not necessarily be possible.
But raising kids is (often) a two person thing, and while I'm currently single who knows what sitch I'll be when I do have kids.